SPEAKER_02 0:00

Process is not prescriptive and it's just about finding what works for you and practicing flexibility and some fluidity because what works for one book may not necessarily work for another book. But understanding the principles of story and storytelling and allowing a reader to experience that is very helpful to understand at the outset. Hey writer, welcome to the Write It Scared Podcast. I'm Stacy, your host. The podcast is on a break for the summer while I recharge and get ready for season four. But I didn't want to leave you hanging. Over the next couple months, I will be pulling some favorite solo episodes from the vault, episodes on craft, mindset, and just the messy reality of writing our books. Also, as a reminder, the Courage Files will remain open for submissions all summer long. The Courage Files is a new segment launching on the podcast in season four where listeners share moments of writing courage, big or small. Maybe you finally figured out how to make a tricky scene work, or you finished your draft, or you shared your work. Maybe you returned to writing after a long time away, or you simply kept going when it would have been easier to quit. Whatever your moment looks like, I want to hear about it. And with your permission, share it on the podcast next season to help inspire other writers. Because remember, we're in this together. Every submission received this summer will be entered for a chance to win a free editorial assessment and book coaching session with me. And I'll announce the winner when season four kicks off this fall. To submit, go to writeitscared.co forward slash courage hyphen files, or you can find the link in the show notes. And if you're diving into planning or drafting a new novel this summer, grab my free novel quick start guide. It's called First Draft Confidence, and it's designed to help you build a strong foundation for your story so that you can move into your first draft with more clarity, more confidence, and a whole lot less flailing. You can find the novel quick start guide at writeitscared.co forward slash novel planning guide, or you can also find the link for that in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

All right, so let's get into today's episode, and I'll see you back for real in season four.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Hi, writer. Welcome back to another episode of the Ride It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser. And as you can tell, I don't have much of a voice today because I've come down with some crime cold. So I'm gonna try to save my voice for tomorrow when I meet with my clients, go over their submissions. And because of that, I didn't have it in me to record a solo episode for you for the corruption arc. And I don't think you really want to listen to me this way, anyway. So what I'm going to do instead is share the interview I did with Imadeshi from the Be a Bestseller Summit 6.0 Back to Basics event in January. And it was on how a writer can approach planning and outlining their novel in a way that would work for them, regardless of whether they were a pantser or a plotter. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. And when we come back for another craft chat, voice willing, we will talk about the corruption arc and then wrap up our character arc discussion with the static art. So thank you very much for your patience and I hope you enjoy the interview.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Hey everybody, and welcome back to another lovely interview with Be a Bestseller 6.0 back to basics. And today's guest is the lovely Stacy Fraser. Stacy is a formally repressed creative soul-turned fiction writer. She's an author accelerator, certified book coach, and the host of the Write It Scared podcast. Her mission is to help beginning and struggling fiction writers overcome self-doubt, to find joy, and gain clarity and confidence in their process and craft so that they finish books they are proud of. When not writing, reading, or working with writers, you can find Stacy crafting with her daughter, hanging out with goats, of course, and on the trail with her goofy love pups. Today we're going to be talking about how to plan or outline your novel. But Stacy, welcome. So lovely to have you here. Thank you for having me, Emma. So I can't mention goats and not ask you about them. Do you have one goat, multiple goats?

SPEAKER_02 4:23

No, you cannot have just one goat. They are parasocial creatures. If you have one goat, you will have a very lonely, sad goat. So no. I have five, six, seven now.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

That's little haired. You've got a little haired goat.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

I I do, I do. I've always been uh I have an affinity for dirt and animals as well as stories. So I love that. I used to I used to milk them and make lotion and soap and all the things. And then when I had my daughter, just too many hobbies. So but they I love them and they are they they are now my pasture pets.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Oh, lovely. And are they as grumpy as we kind of led to believe they are, or are they quite quite cheerful?

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Very sweet.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Love it. Well, we are not here to talk about goats, unfortunately, but we are here to talk um about planning, plotting novels, getting things in shape, or thinking about things before we start doing the writing. But just before we delve into that, I'd love it if you'd share with me and our audience a little bit about yourself and how you stopped being repressed and stepped into the to the writing world.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah. Well, I love that question. And I always find a find it's hard for me to answer in just like a small nugget, but I'll do, I'll do my best. I grew up believing that creativity was not for me and that I did not have a place in that kind of world. And I pursued a very linear education and career path, and I chose a lot of I should do. I should do this, I should do that. And that led me to degrees in economics and in medicine, and I practiced medicine for 10 years as a physician assistant. And as in story, you know, our stories are about characters' internal journeys. I my internal self was rubbing up against this world I had created, and I was very unhappy. And no dirty details, but there came a point when the rubber met the road and I had to do some changing. And through that, I leaned into stories again. And really, that is probably where I discovered the power of story. Story truly has the power to change and shape lives and save them. And it's no stretch to say that it saved mine. And so hearing other people's stories, reading other people's stories, fiction or nonfiction, is a way to create empathy for yourself and compassion for yourself as well as others in your community. So that is I started writing, did not know a thing, and you know, expected it to be good, that it was not good at all. But I really, you know, I took time and hell of a lot of therapy. But I came to the place where I believe that, you know, my voice is as unique as yours, as unique as the others, and we all have something to say. And if we want to say it in whatever manner, in long-form fiction, which happens to be mine, uh, then we can learn the tools that we need to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yes, and that is oh, so many good, good things in there. I think you you had your own inciting incident, which then changed things and moved you into fiction. And I think that happens for a lot of us who have taken that sort of more scenic route towards writing and storytelling, that's something happens in our lives that makes us kind of think, do you know what? I've got to do this, I've got to make shake things up, I've got to change things so that I feel fulfilled or what was important isn't quite as important as it once was. And actually, particularly for us women, there comes a point where we think, maybe I'm allowed to do this for myself. Even if I never publish, even if I never become a bestseller, this is a joy for me and it it's fulfilling and it calms my brain and balances everything out for me. So I'm going to be allowed to do it. So I thank you for sharing that with us. I love too that you mentioned the idea of this story being it's it's about compassion, it's about people, it's about learning. And I 100% agree. I don't think we fully understand actually when we're when we're simply readers, when we're we're not thinking about this from the creative side of it, but the consumer side. I don't think we always understand just how much novels do have an impact on us and how we view the world and that we live vicariously through a character and sort of almost unknowingly it it can help us see the world differently and be kind of more open to things we might not have been beforehand. Right. Yeah. So I love that you've mentioned that. And then finally, the thing that I did appreciate you pointing out is that your voice is unique as my voice, as unique as anybody else's. And I know that's something that a lot of writers worry about is what have I got to say? Do I have a special enough way of saying it? My vocabulary is not big enough or I'm not well read enough. But an analogy or an example I often used is, you know, our fingertips. We each have our own fingerprint, and that is unique. And it's as unique as the experiences we bring to our story, and whatever words we choose, whatever vocabulary we use, it's unique and it ours. And so I'm really glad that you you mentioned for our listeners. So, but let's dive into our topic, shall we, about planning and plotting and preparing ourselves for this book. And I know that one of the steps, and maybe some would say might be the most important step, but certainly one of the primary steps is that idea of what's going up in your head, you know, where we're at up there. And so mindset, I think, possibly is is one of the steps that that you you believe in and having that as being as part of your preparation.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah. And before I go there, I'll just say that this is not prescriptive. It's really process is not prescriptive. And it's just about finding what works for you, taking what you like, molding it into a process that's, you know, works for you and practicing flexibility and some fluidity because what works for one book may not necessarily work for another book. But understanding the principles of story and storytelling and allowing a reader to experience that is very helpful to understand at the outset. But having said that, not prescriptive, there's no one way to write a novel. So, and and certainly I'm not going to talk about an exhaustive outlining process today. So if you're a panther or a discovery writer, you're safe and it's okay. But yeah, so mindset, I always invite writers to think about the relationship they want to have with the creative work, especially if this is your first or maybe second time. I mean, welcome, welcome to the madness and the magic that is, you know, writing a novel. You can be thrilled in one second and miserable the next because you just realize the thing you discovered just created an entire plot tangle for you someplace else. So, and I and I just want to encourage people to find the communities and the pockets and the places because this is that that resonate with them because this is a very warm and inclusive place. I didn't know that. I didn't believe that when I first got here, but I have come to learn that. So, yes, mindset. One, I think setting your expectations up from the get-go is really important. Nobody writes a perfect novel in one shot. Nobody edits everything perfectly on the first pass. This is messy. And it, it really probably doesn't necessarily get less messy. You get more, maybe more efficient and better at handling the mess as you practice. And that's another thing is that writing is a practice. And this is a practice where we will pursue it and no one really will ever master it entirely because it evolves and it changes with the times. And it's as unique to you or me or anybody else. So, yeah, just grounding yourself in your expectations, thinking about it as a learning experience. You don't have to do it perfectly in one shot. Thinking that you will or that you will be the exception will create pain. And, you know, it's not just a one and done either. You can't just say, okay, well, I'm gonna have a positive mindset here and a learning mindset. It creeps in the inner critic, the procrastination, the perfectionistic tendencies, those things will creep in, the comparison will creep in. So cultivating a level of self-awareness as you're planning, developing your story, as you're writing, as you're editing, and doing some self-checks, be like talking to that negative piece, the negative voice on the shoulder, and being like, I don't, I don't need this right now. And just know that it's normal. It doesn't make you bad, good, or indifferent. It's just we all have it. So keep your expectations low, embrace a spirit of exploration, of creativity. And when you find that you're frustrated, it's a good time to pause. You don't have to write every day.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

You don't have to so that's an interesting thing to to bring up. So many good things in there. I think the the cultivating this, the curiosity that there's a practice that we are never going to know all of this, the same with any art form. You never entirely master it. There's always an evolution for every writer. But so let me ask you though, about that idea of writing every day. Is that something that you feel because it's quite contentious, I think. Some people think, yes, you do need to do this because this is how you develop your practice and this is how you you develop your process as well, and it gets you into the routine of it and it takes away the pressure. And then others will be like, well, no, it adds the pressure, and it's, you know, you don't need to write every day. So do you fit into kind of one of those camps, or what have you noticed with the people, either in your own writing experience or with the people that you work with?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

It depends on the writer. You know, discipline is discipline, but it can be facilitated in different ways. So I encourage writers to show up for their story. And some writers need to be able to breathe a little bit and think about things and and noodle. Other writers do better if they come to the page and they type. They noodle as they type. You know, so it just depends on the person. You know, at the end of the day, if we're talking about goals here and we're trying to align our intentions and our actions with our goals, and we're not meeting those, then we need to look at the process that's shaping them and make adjustments.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

There is no one size fits all. Part of the job of being a writer, particularly those early books, is you finding your process, I think. And that can be as equally fr frustrating as putting the words on the page as well. Because one of the things you just said earlier was that actually the process for every book can be a bit different as well. It's not just a one-and-done thing. And I think that's really important for our newer writers listening to know that that it's a constantly evolving thing. And just when you think you've nailed it, something might shift a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

There's anything wrong with you, the writer or the story.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

I mean, oh, it's just the the nature of this bizarre world we've chosen to kind of immerse ourselves in. Okay, so say we've got, you know, feeling good about it, we're feeling we've got the our expectations at the right level, and we want to start moving forward. So we might be a writer who's got an idea. How do we start to take that idea and then and start shaping it into something that might be workable?

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah. So, you know, in the beginning, I said, you know, there's no prescriptive advice here. You can start any way you want, and ideas come from different, all kinds of an amalgam of different places. Having said that, I think it's really good to understand some basic fundamentals about story. Most of us assume we know what a story is because we've been steeped in it our whole lives. Uh, but when we sit down to write one, it's a little different. So understanding what a story is, it's not just a sequence of events. It's not just something that happens to someone. It's not, you know, it doesn't have to be big or dramatic. Uh, what it needs to accomplish is delivering an emotional experience to the reader. That's truly what a story is. And the way that it does that, the mechanism that it does that through is by anchoring into a character and demonstrating change, either change within the character or because of the character, there is change experienced in the world and the society of the story. So that's really what we have to remember is that we are shaping a collection of events to create change that resonates emotionally with the reader.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

So I think what I'm hearing you say then is that a plot line, what actually happens in the story, that is not separate from the change that a character goes through in, but actually they're they're interconnected and so one impacts the other.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Absolutely. If you just take it up super high level, what is a story? Story is something that once it occurs, the change is permanent. Right? It can never the life as we know it can never go back to the way it was. Why? Because of the interpersonal transformation of the character or that character stayed true to their beliefs and values, and because of that made difficult decisions and the world around them changed. So it is interconnected. The character and the plot are intimately interconnected. You cannot have one without the other. They truly drive each other. So then the other piece, once you kind of have that idea, is like I'm creating a change that is linked to a character or cast of characters in this world. The next thing you want to think about is okay, how do I deliver this emotional experience? And that is where structure comes in. So understanding that structure, because you're, you know, you're trying to drive this thing to a satisfying ending for your reader. Structure is the vehicle that will allow you to do that. And I like to think of it as the scaffolding that supports the roller coaster ride, the journey that the character and thereby the reader is going to take. And it's not formulaic. And I used to think it was. And I was very like, I just re-embrace my creativity. I don't want anybody telling me what to do. But I learned that there is a rhythm to it and a reason for it. And so it creates that satisfying emotional ending, regardless of whether that is positive or negative. So understanding, and there's many, many different types of story structure out there. And if you're a new writer stepping into this as your first or second book, and maybe you're trying to decide between what do I use? No, three act, four act, W plot, save the cat, what whatever hero's journey. Pick one. Just pick one. Don't mix and match. Just pick one that resonates with you that you like, because really they are all saying the same thing. They are all showing you how to create this transformation. And they might just be using different terminology. And so it's easy to get confused. So just pick one and understand that's the vehicle that's going to drive your bus to finish.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

I'm so glad you said that because you that absolutely reminds me of me. A number of years ago when I did think that all of these different structures were different. And that's it took me a long time to realize that they were all talking about the same thing, but just using different terminology.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

And I remember feeling it narrows the canon when you realize that. Yeah. You know, really in Western society, all of that really is it doesn't matter if it's the W plot or the Save the Cat or the Hero's journey. It comes in like this three-piece mechanism, right? We have beginning, we have begin beginning, middle, and and so all of that terminology, all of those plot points that they're talking about fits into that structure.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yeah. So yeah, so it's kind of just like how however the writer's brain works and what words resonate most and the kind of ways the way the the teacher talks about it, if that resonates with you and makes sense to your your creative brain, then go with that one. But yeah, it just it was I just laughed at myself and I realized, oh, it's all the same thing. Okay. Who do I resonate with?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

And we're not like we're not making this up. This is backed by neuroscience. And for writers, like two really excellent resources to learn about how a human's brain interacts with story and why we are interested in the experience of being in a story. It's all back to our neurobiology. It's all back to survival. It's all linked to our lizard brain. But those resources are wired for story and story genius, both by Lisa Cron. Highly recommend them.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, yeah. I love Story Genius. It's one of my go-tos, absolutely. Especially in that planning stage. And one of the questions that she asks, and we're both author accelerator trained, so is something that comes up for both of us is why does the story matter to you? And I think that is I think that is actually one of the parts of the planning that we need to do, which I didn't always see. And I wonder if you could speak into that. A little bit about why, and one of the questions we get we ask our clients is why does the story matter to you? Why are you the person to tell it? And that is quite a question that can stump you, you know, can can really confuse a lot of people. I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about that and from your own experience, maybe how you found it benefits your own storytelling, but also those of your clients.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Well, I think again, it depends on the person. Some people come in and they have an idea and they have a reason for that idea. Other people do not. And they, you know, they just they want to write something that is light and fun and exciting, and they haven't anchored into the internal experience that they're thinking about, that they're they're thinking about showing within the story for the character. And that's fine. So I keep it very high and very light. You know, what is it that interests you about this idea or this, you know, this scenario? What are you interested in exploring? And if it's high and it's light and we haven't touched, we haven't really dug into the dirt yet, we leave it there and we explore some other elements of the story. And when we get to talking about, okay, so at the end of the day, what do you think your reader, what do you want, what kind of feeling do you want to leave your reader with? Then we come back to the why. Okay, but why does that matter? So you want to write a hopeful story about love and connection. Why does that matter? And so we come back to that. And the reason that we do is because writing a book takes a long, damn time, right? So you're gonna be in this for a while, a year, maybe three, maybe five. It just depends. Because again, this is a learning process. And if this is your first or second novel, you're learning a ton of stuff, it's and juggling a lot. So if you are intimately connected to the reason behind that story, when it gets discouraging and when it gets hard, because it will, going back into that piece of why it matters to you can be really helpful. And remembering that you don't have to do it right, you don't have to get it all done all perfectly in one shot. Stories are made in layers, lots of layers. The first layers we put down, they're not pretty. They're not supposed to be. It's like painting a fence, right? Like the first coat, there's tons of holes. You can still see the wood. But over time, you know, it gets better and better and better until we have something that we're like, whoa, that's a really nice fence. Yeah. So, yeah, so it just depends. And then the other question of like, why are you the person to tell this story? That is a heavy weight of frame, I think, what that question is trying to get at. And what I like to ask instead is how are you connected? I like that. How are you connected to this personal? And usually people are. We're not writing about stuff we don't care about.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? Because when we think about it as writers, there's we get a thousand ideas a day about what could be a story, what could be a story. But out of those hundreds of thousands of ideas that we get, there's only a very few that really stick with us that we think, ah, yeah, this might have legs, this might be something I could really do something with. And it's the idea that won't let us go and keeps coming back and keeps coming back. And I think that question, the those sort of two questions that we've been discussing are getting to the root of, well, why is it this story idea that won't let you go and keeps niggling away at you until you bite it? So often, yeah, there there is that, there is that connection. That's a great way of saying it. There is that connection, but we're we're not always conscious of it or found a way of articulating it when we store it. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. Okay, so this is great. So we're we're kind of doing this sort of pre-thinking, if you like, about why the story matters, why we want to um to write it. We've looked at some of the elements of story as well. So we've touched on structure. Was there anything else that you wanted to kind of touch on with that in terms of?

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Um well, I I think that again, so understanding what a story is, understanding the mechanism that you're gonna deliver the story through is structure, and then thinking about the elements that go into that, the components, which it doesn't matter like how you approach them or what in what order, but those are thinking about the setting, like where and when is this story gonna take place, and considering any world-building aspects that you need to dig into and how can where and when the story takes place add tension and conflict to the plot, to the story. Characters clearly thinking about who the story will will, you know, be driven by and what do they want, what do they value, what do they believe, and most importantly, how will they change through the experience of the story? And you may not know that. You may not know, I mean, it's hard to, you know, bring people out of the ether. But if you if you have an idea of who they are at one point or other, one side of the story or the other, then you can either go forward and kind of think, okay, well, what's the inverse in either direction? Like I have a, I want them to and in a place of happiness and hope. Well, perhaps at the start of the story they think their life is just fine and they don't need anybody, so they're disillusioned. Or perhaps they feel like they're undeserving of love, right? So you can kind of work backwards from there. But whatever makes them engage into the story has got to come with cost. So you have to remember to build in these stakes, which is the why does it matter? And it always has to matter. If your character could say no and nothing happens, it's not a story. Uh, say that again, for us. If your character could say no and nothing happens to them because they say no, no, thank you. I don't want to engage, then it's not a story. There has to be something hanging in the balance for them. And that has to increase as the story goes forward. So now we're talking about conflict, right? So that brings in conflict, and conflict is your antagonistic force, right? Whatever is opposing your character, your character needs to want something. They need to want it badly at some point. They may not be aware of it at the very beginning of the story. They need to see that they want it badly, and then there's got to be something in their way. And so them crashing up against that antagonistic force in the context of the world that you created will create your plot. And will we and a plot is just a sequence of events that create change, micro changes throughout the story.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

The the antagonism that you mentioned there, the antagonistic force, is that always a person? You know, is that the our antagonist?

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Not necessarily. No, an antagonistic force. It can be external, it can be another character, it can be something in the world, it can be society, it can be a host, a host of things, but it is a form of oppression against the protagonist's desires. And it can also be the protagonists themselves. The character themselves can get in their own way. And oftentimes, really good story is made out of both, right? There's external opposing forces, and then the character has internal, has an internal struggle that is keeping them from developing as a human, uh, as a person, and whether or not I kind of like to think of it as like they there's a lesson in the story, and the character either learns it and becomes better because of it, or they don't and they they're worse off. Also, you can have what we call a steadfast or a flat character where that person doesn't change, but their value systems are challenged throughout the story because of the conflict in the world that you've created. And their job is usually to stay true to those values and make difficult decisions and not take the easy path. Right. And then and then because of their actions, they wind up changing the world around them. You know, they either save the world or they shift societal views or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah. So is that kind of flat arc then would that be something, you know, like Jason Bourne or like probably James Bond is a better example where Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

So I think a really good example is like Katniss Everdeen. Katniss Everdeen is from The Hunger Game. She has a pretty steadfast arc. Internally, she does not change a whole lot. She does change a little, but not a whole lot. But she is challenged to she has the opportunity to do the wrong thing or the right thing multiple times throughout the story. And it is her character and value system that keeps her making difficult decisions, not just to save her life, but to attempt to save other people's lives and work together. And and yeah, so she's willing to make those sacrifices, then she shows, you know, that a villain can be defeated or at least outsmarted temporarily, and also that sacrifice there are more important things than just surviving.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yes, yeah. Yeah, she does make a lot of tough decisions. She's definitely a tougher cookie than I am. I think I would have taken the easier route out than her. My story would not have been as compelling if I beated that.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

But that that actually brings you to the theme of the story. And that's the last element that you want to really think about in this melting pot, right? So, I mean, you've got your setting, you've got your character, you've got your conflict and your plots, and then your theme, which is kind of the general message that the story is speaking to. I it draw it, it it's inner, it's messy, it's interconnected to all of these other things. And it's I, you know, some some writers really need to anchor into that to be able to create their story. I am one of those writers. And it usually starts out as a question of what does it cost to live a lie? And then it becomes something, a concrete statement. It costs your dignity, it costs everything, right? And so that's the thing that I'm proving in the story. But it's very high level and it usually speaks to the character's journey, like whatever the change was that they experienced or the lesson of the story. It's not something we hit our readers over the head with, but it's an essence that can be extrapolated. Once you put the book down, she's like, what did that? So I don't put a whole ton of weight on it in the beginning when we're planning a book. But if you if you dig into your characters and you trust your conflict, I think it emerges.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yes, yeah. Theme is such is a a nuanced one, I always think. So sorry, just outline those those elements for us again.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

We had setting, character, character, character and character arc, right? How they change. Conflict, plot, theme. Pain theme. Theme. Pain Yes, that will work also.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

So these, so for just thinking about our listeners here who might be who might be writing their first book, and this might feel like a lot of things to kind of think about up front, and they may be saying, But I'm not a plotter, I'm a pantser. Do you feel that these are things we can come to over time? You mentioned the word layering earlier, is that kind of things that we can layer in? Or do you feel actually is quite it's it serves the writer to really think about these things up front, even if they don't have a concrete answer to everything?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Again, it it depends on the writer. But what I do think you you have to appreciate and accept is I believe that a book takes a certain amount of energy. You know, and where how that energy is distributed depends on the writer. But people who enjoy spending time up front thinking about these elements, right, and noodling around these things, they're gonna spend a lot of time and energy there. And the drafting will be a little more streamlined for them, as probably will the revision. Now, writers who do not enjoy noodling these things out front, and they like to be in the page and on the line and creating as they go, fine also. But eventually you'll have to pull up and get a high-level view and be thinking about these elements because they exist in all story. And so eventually, you know, you're gonna have to pull them in and then you're gonna have to make sense of them. And that is all fine, but the but the heavy lifting and the energy may come later in in the story process. The sort, you know, the it may it might come in revision. You know, some people I have written books where I don't think about any of this stuff, not really.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

I that's not sorting out. I think that is something that when we're that excitement that comes, we want to write that first book, we just want to do it and we get on with it. Might do a little bit of pre-thinking, but the excitement takes over. And then I think there's maybe like this shift that happens once we sort of decide we make that move from this is a hobby to, ooh, I'd actually like to publish this book. And then we start thinking more and more in-depth about the story that we're writing. So if if anyone's listening and they haven't thought about these things, you know, that that's perfectly normal as well.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

Yes, it is. And my catalyst was pain, really. It was it was because I got the got to the end of a book and went, what did I write? And then uh had to go in and learn these elements and then, you know, redraft. And and the revision took a long time. So, you know, I thought to myself, man, maybe if I think about these things up front, it'll be easier and more efficient. And today I've developed a system for myself that works where I do some planning, not a ton, and I get my get myself to a place where I at least I know the conflict, I know what the challenges are gonna be, and I know why this is going to challenge my character. And I have an idea of how I want them to change. I cannot see very far into the story. I can only usually see the beginning, and then it's like, you know, yeah, panting from there. So it's kind of an amalgam, you know?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

So do you plan as far as head as say that you know what the inciting incident is going to be? Or is even that sometimes a surprise?

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Yeah, and for anybody who doesn't know, an inciting incident is you have a character who is in a status, their their status quo, they're normal, and the inciting incident is the very first disruption to their world, and it can be positive or negative. Yes, I typically know the inciting incident, and I also know what I like to call like the choice and the jump into the second act of the story where they make that decision to step into a whole new world. For example, this is where just real super simple like your character stumbles across the body. That's the whoa, this person was murdered. And then, you know, a little more information is revealed to them, and they're like, oh, I'm I think I'm the only person that can solve this. But to do it, I'm gonna have to step into this whole world that I don't know. That would be an example of now I am in the story, which we also call the promise of the premise, right? The reason that we're reading the experience that we're coming to the table for of this amateur sleuth, right? Yeah. So that would just be simple example. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then most of the time I know my middle ish-I at least I try to find that what we call a reversal where something is revealed, the the true scope of the conflict is typically revealed to the protagonist. And in in your when you research story structure, you'll find that they call it a false victory or false defeat. It can be those, it doesn't have to be, but something and it doesn't have to be big or dynamic, but it has to be eye-opening to the protagonist. Sometimes I know that, sometimes I don't. And I never really ended. But a mad men when you write suspense.

unknown 38:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Well, do you know I I'm amazed the amount of writers I've listened to and like big names who write thriller, suspense, crime, they don't know who did it either. And so that always gives me hope. And I think, okay, it this is a sort of intuitive thing as we go along for a long.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

I anchor into that with all my heart.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

But in each of those, you know, you're talking about the inciting incident, and and then that that's you had a phrase for it that you but that kind of moment where something is revealed, it's maybe the second plot point where something is revealed. Uh those are moments where they have to be, am I right in thinking, they've got to be uh sufficiently important that the character can't say no, they've got to make a choice, they can't say no in their life carry on as normal. This is gonna change the story in some way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Yeah. I think if you lean on a couple of things, whether you're planning or you're actually you're you're you know, you're noodling and planning or you're actually drafting. If you lean on always making your character make a tough decision and that there is follow-through and sometimes fallout because of that decision, you will naturally give yourself forward momentum in your plots, even if you don't know these terms, inciting incident, you know, first turning point, all the things, right? If you lean on make them make decisions in service to their goals, or at least desire to make decisions in service to their goals, even if they're strapped down and they can't do anything, right? Have them thinking about the plan. If you, if you do that and then build in the the cost, it you you're naturally gonna give what we call the story narrative drive or plot thrust, right? Forward momentum. And that comes, that stems from character agency. And sometimes also, like if you get stuck in your plot and you're like, ugh, I don't know what happens next. If you think outside your character and into the scope of your ancillary characters, and you start thinking about your side characters or what the antagonistic force is doing, if it's a character or a sentient being, then that can help you put more pressure on the protagonist and force them into an uncomfortable choice again. Right. So, but in general, in general, thinking about stories like we've got a beginning. We have somebody who's maybe not comfortable, but they are in a known situation and known world, and they may want something or they may want nothing to change. And then we disrupt them, and from that disruption, it triggers them to have a desire, a new want. They will either want to put things back in order or they're gonna want more of the good thing that just came to them, right? So they will take action in service to the goals, but it won't be easy, and that's the job of the writer is like, don't make it easy, always make it harder.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

And so that's one of the ways that we can then build that plot. You know, and then so that we can pull it all together at the end, hopefully, and right.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

And so, I mean, naturally, things will come to you. I mean, if you're writing a story, I mean, just and that's where you use your world and your setting in the situation. I mean, if you have uh somebody who wants to play in the NBA, well, there's gonna be a tryout, right? There's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be other players to contend with. There's gonna be competition. So you're building that it kind of comes organically. It's quite messy, but it does come. Just keep your character making decisions and remember that because they made that decision, this is the next thing that happens. Anytime something that happens in the story, use that because of that. My character realizes desires, wants, takes action.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

That will help you a lot.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

I I think that when you hear writers say the story kind of wrote itself, I think that's the sort of thing they're referring to. It's not that this there's some magical voice came down and and told them what to write, but understanding how to put that plot line together and how the conflict forces the characters to make a decision that whatever the decision is, that then drives the plot forward. And and then, as you say, organic, messy, but we can organically come together.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

So I've always make good decisions, and that is okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Yeah. Wow. Stacey, we have covered an awful, awful lot in our our conversation today. But I I think it really is going to give people a really solid start to how they might want to think about planning or plotting a novel, no matter how their process is, whether they consider themselves cancers or plotters. But I'd like to for you just to share a little bit about how you work with writers. How do you help writers write their first or second or third book?

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Yeah, so I work with writers either in small group coaching environments where there's you know four to six writers at a time, and we create like a cohesive little community of support and camaraderie while they're learning the principles of story and begin developing their draft. And then I and I also work with people one on one as well. And so it's very much the same process. Whether you enjoy being in a group coaching environment or you prefer being one-on-one. The one thing that I feel very strongly about is in a group setting, writing a new brand new novel, especially if you're fairly new to this and you're drafting, it is not a time for critique from peers. It's not the time for people to be looking at your lines and critiquing your prose. Yeah. So my writers do not swap work in the group coaching, but they do share their work with me privately. Right. And yeah, so those are the two ways. And then the other way is the podcast, the Ride It Scared Podcast, which is really about kind of exposing the underbelly of the writing process, the hard parts, the disheartening parts, where I interview other authors who are willing to share a bit of that vulnerable experience and tell and share just how ugly those first drafts truly are. So that it kind of normalizes the roller coaster for all of us. As well as focusing on craft and you know, living this messy experience as a as a human and a writer.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

It's it is crazy and messy, but I have to admit, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. It's I think you said at the top of the the call today that it's a really supportive environment and community to work in, and we couldn't be luckier. And what lovely offerings that you have. I like the sound of the small group, particularly that it's really small, four to six writers. That sounds so lovely that you get the community in that. I'm sure there'll be a few introverted writers as well going, Oh, and I don't have to share my work with the group. That will be uh a relief as well. But knowing that you are there with your expertise, with your professionalism to come in and help guide them to tell their story the way that they want to tell it. Yeah, I love that. We are coming to the end of our call, but just before we um say Cheerio, uh, you have very kindly have a free gift for our listeners, which is First Draft Confidence Workbook and Plan and Draft Your Novel Without the Guesswork, which I know will be music to many people's ears. Um can you share a little bit about it?

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Yeah, so it's a workbook that is designed to help you organize your thoughts, your ideas, think about maybe some of the ways that you know, your your perfectionism or procrastination, or just things that get in your way have shown up for you before and tools that you can use to remind yourself that this matters and this is important, and it's okay to take time for this, as well as how to start thinking about characters and storyline and develop a very high-level working outline. And right now, there's a free bonus webinar uh that comes with the email, and it's a 40-minute free webinar uh where I take you deeper into these concepts of the five elements of story and how to put that together into a high-level outline, and it also comes with its own workbook too. So if you sign up for First Ref Confidence, then you get that as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Wow, that's super generous. Thank you. And people couldn't be in safer hands with you, so I hope they will go and grab it. I'm sure they will. Stacey, thank you so so much. It's been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Yeah, same to you. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. And please leave a review. Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories. Let's lift each other up. Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable. I'll see you next week.