SPEAKER_02 0:00

The task of my revision was constantly sort of infusing the tension and the feeling that I wanted this novel to have. Revision is a magical thing. It kind of doesn't even matter what you start with, as long as you start with something, and then you just have to keep going in, you know, draft by draft by draft to build it up.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formally repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach. At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories. The one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it. This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully. Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers. Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone. Welcome to Write It Scared. I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hi, writer. Welcome back to the Write It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser. This is where we talk about the brave and often uncomfortable act of writing our novels so that we can do it with more clarity, more confidence, and know that we're not alone. Today is a guest episode, and I am joined by novelist Kate Rode, who is the author of Greenwich, a work of literary fiction, about what happens when a young woman finds herself inside a world of wealth, power, and privilege and becomes a keeper of a truth that no one wants exposed. In this episode, we talk about writing characters who aren't easy to like, building tension through what's unsaid, and why revision, not inspiration, is where a novel is really built. Kate shares candidly about false starts, major rewrites, learning to change and trust in an uncomfortable point of view, and staying in the work when the writing gets hard, slow, and uncertain. If you're interested in literary fiction with some teeth, and in the long and messy process of shaping a novel, and you need to be reminded that it's okay for your first draft not to land because you will fix it in revision, then I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. Let me give you Kate's bio and then we'll jump into the interview. Kate Brode holds a BA from Wesley College and a PhD in English from the C U N Y Graduate Center. She's a Bronx Counsel on the Arts Award winner for fiction, and her writing has appeared in the Rumpus, No Tokens, Electric Literature, Lithub, The Baltimore Review, and elsewhere. Her debut novel, Greenwich, was released in 2025 from St. Martin's Press and was named one of People Magazine's best new books, a Vanity Fair summer read, and an Amazon editor's pick for best new literature and fiction. Originally from Massachusetts, she lives in the Bronx. Hi, Kate. Thank you so much for coming on the Write It Scared podcast. I'm very excited to have you here today and to talk about your debut literary fiction novel. So how are you? Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

I'm so excited to be here, and I'm so excited to talk about all of the scary parts of writing it scared.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yep, that's what we do here. We kind of talk about the hard parts. But also like the one- also known as writing, right? All the parts. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But we also talk about the cool pieces too. And just try to normalize all parts of the roller coaster. So would you please just share a bit about your writing journey? How did you get here?

SPEAKER_02 3:41

What drew you into writing fiction? I was definitely one of those kids who always wanted to be a writer, you know, first grade, writing stories. And so that was really kind of I had my eye on it for so long, but I didn't know how to actually make that happen. I think probably hopefully other people can relate to that feeling too of like, I want to write, but how do I do that? And I worked on a lot of different projects. I wrote poetry in college, I did a PhD in English, in not an MFA, but I was sort of always writing that whole time, but trying to figure out what that was going to look like. And I'm sure we'll get into this more as we progress, but I worked on a bunch of different novels. And actually, the first fiction of mine that was published, I wrote romance novels under a pen name. And so I had this kind of secret other life for a while. But that whole time I was also always working on kind of literary fiction or the fiction that Greenwich is a little bit more this like literary page turner, sort of drawing from different genres, thriller, suspense, mystery, but like not a romance novel. It's definitely not a romance. And I had been working on it on a bunch of different projects and had a number of false starts and near misses. And it's it's I'm still pinching myself like that Greenwich is the book that landed, and that out of all of these projects that I have been working on for really a long time, that this is the one that hit first.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

So from a romance writer under a pen name to publishing this debut literary fiction novel.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

So what is Greenwich about? Who will it appeal to? So it's about a woman who's looking back on the summer that she graduates from high school. She's 17, she's about to start college, she's about to start her life, and she goes and spends the summer with her very, very wealthy aunt and uncle in Greenwich, Connecticut. And when she's there, an accident happens. And she's really the only one who knows the truth about it. And so the book becomes it's about the sort of buildup to the accident and what happens, but it's also really about the aftermath and what is Rachel going to do with the information that she has? What kind of moral choice is she gonna make? And then how is she gonna live with the consequences for the rest of her life? So it's a pretty dark domestic fiction exploring a lot of, I think, really pertinent social issues around privilege and class and race and gender and how we uh how we live with ourselves and the mistakes we might make.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah, it's quite suspenseful. I've just started reading it. So I I'm I'm I'm enjoying it. I'm not very far in and I'm not gonna give anything away. Yeah. Um so, but very suspenseful. And just from the jacket copy and reading, I feel like there's a lot about the power of perceived truth. And uh something that comes keeps coming up for me is the idea of secrets that we harbor and how those can splinter like versions of reality.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Right. And like that's on, you know, it's on page one. It's sort of Rachel. As soon as we meet her, she's like, I wasn't lying, but I learned that not lying isn't the same as telling the truth. And like you sort of know, I think from the very beginning that that you're gonna be taken to some interesting places with this character who who is really splitting those very fine hairs around, well, what is the truth? What's a lie? What's a secret? And what are those family secrets that you protect and that you feel really there's a there's a kind of narrative where people it's like you're the hero and it's really noble to say, I will protect my family at all costs. And then Greenwich is kind of the other side of that of when you protect your family at all costs. Like, what is the cost of that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Here's the cost. And how do you bear that as a human? The cost is steep, yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, uh, there's definitely this vibe of what can you live with and what helps you sleep at night. Right. This is a book that I know is gonna make me think. So that's so yeah, yeah, make me think. And so I'm excited to finish it. What drew you? What were the inspiration pieces for this book?

SPEAKER_02 7:57

These were all, I mean, first of all, like this is really the type of fiction that I like to read. And so it's what I gravitate towards. I really I like books that are juicy and complicated and messy, and that have, I mean, my ideal when I think about like the ideal book that I want to read, it's like the writing is gorgeous. I want beautiful writing and I want there to be a plot. I want there to be something I can sink my teeth into. And I don't want to be said easy answers. I think, like you were saying that it's a book that makes you think. Like, I want to be pushed to think as a reader. And so I had all of these things kind of swirling around in my mind when I was developing the novel. I I live in the Bronx, which is like an hour or so from Greenwich. It's like I'm not that far from Connecticut. And I, my husband and I had gone there. We were just like poking around, tooling around, seeing, seeing the area. And we were driving by. I mean, these houses are just incredible, and like these big gates, and you can see these communities that you don't even have access to if you're not in it. And I was had been working around on this short story where a girl was in a car with her aunt, and there's a deer is part of it. I don't know if you're at the part in the novel where the where a deer shows up, but I won't spoil it. So I had this short story, and then we were driving around Greenwich, and I just was thinking about like what would it feel like if those gates opened up and you got to drive in and then you were sort of let into this world. And so I started putting my character in that situation because the story wasn't really going anywhere. It was just started, I was like, well, who is this girl and like why is she in the car and where are they going and what's happening between them and what are they talking about? And then all of a sudden it kind of clicked into place. And I was like, she's just been picked up from the train station. She's with her aunt, and they're driving to her aunt's new house in Greenwich. And I could feel like those front gates opening up and Rachel driving in. And was thinking about like, I'm not writing about a character who's from Greenwich. Like, none of the characters in the book are actually from Greenwich. It's all outsiders who have converged in this one place and are and are trying to kind of make a name for themselves. And that was what really interested me was it just seemed like it set up all of these problems. So it's it's funny to me that it started with such a simple image, like driving up a long driveway. But it once I got into all of those questions about, well, where are where are they and what are they doing? I was like, this feels like a novel. This feels like something I could really spend a lot of time with.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Okay, I love that. So shorts. So there was a bit of a short story that had already started with a character and then a very kind of a setting that allowed you to go in and begin exploring. So, how do you go about developing your characters? Like you it was this book an anomaly, or is this pretty a pretty natural process for you to kind of get an idea, a feel for it, and then start going through it?

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah, I think this is pretty typical where I'll have kind of a problem in mind, a question or a scenario. It's like a little kernel. And then I start populating this world with who are the people who would face this problem and what would they do once it happens. It's all it's hard to talk about with Greenwich because talking about the accident is a spoiler. But I knew from the very beginning when I was picturing Rachel going to this house, I knew what the accident was gonna be. And so I was able to build it, the story around that, to say, well, how are we gonna get there and what's gonna happen after? And then I had to really think about, well, who are all of these characters? Because I wanted them to respond to this accident in a particular way. And I wanted the book to really be about the consequences to it. So when I knew sort of this is the direction that the book was going in, it was like, well, what kind of people would make this happen? And so that's I think that tends to be kind of my process is starting with an image, starting with some questions, starting with a problem. And then it's really about the characters who are populating that world. It's sort of when I think about plot and character and writing, I try to really build them all up in tandem. So the character is driving the plot, but I do also have an idea of the plot in mind. So I know the type of character that I that needs to be in the world of the novel, if that makes sense. One kind of isn't like driving more than the other. To me, they feel like really inextricably bound together into like what makes the book emerge as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, so with Rachel, who is the protagonist and she is your viewpoint character for the entire novel, right? What do you think, without giving away any spoilers, what quality about her made her ideal for this particular book? And I know I didn't give you this question.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

I'm just curious. Oh no, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

I'm just really curious.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah, because she's she's a tricky character. And I knew from the beginning, it's like I don't want to use the word unlikable because that is so fraught and it's so gendered the way that people talk, especially about female narrators, as unlikable. So I try to stay away from that. But at the same time, I'm like, she is at times hard to like, but to me, she's very human. And that was what I wanted was I would equals complicated, which equals complicated. So I was like, I want to be deep inside her head. It's first person point of view. Actually, I wrote the first draft as third person, fun fact. And then I totally rewrote it. And that that was a big change that I really needed to do in order to just get closer to her. And I think also tying into the write it scared, like that felt really hard. It felt hard to be close to her because she's so difficult. But that was what I needed to lean into in writing the book. Like I knew that she was not going to be a character that the reader would agree with all the time. But I wanted us to still be on this journey with her. I felt like this is the only perspective that can tell this story. And she's not above it all. She's not better than everything that happened. She's not like a sort of outsider narrator looking in. Like she is right in the muck of it. And so I kept that's I don't know if that if I've even answered your question now. Just those, those are the sorts of things that I was thinking about and about like not giving away out. So because like we're in her head the whole time, and we're really in this house in Greenwich for most of the time. It's not a big cast of characters. It's the family. It's her, she's there with her cousin, she's there with her cousin's live in babysitter. There's a sort of almost claustrophobic feeling in this like New England gothic mansion. And I wanted that to also come across with the way that we're inside Rachel's mind for the whole time. So it's kind of thinking of like that vibe and that feeling and really being with this person who wasn't gonna give us an easy out. Like anytime I, as the narrator, wanted to come in and be like, and here's the moral of the story, or here's the lesson of the scene, or like Rachel is thinking something, but I don't want you, reader, to agree with it. Like I had to come in and cut those parts out and just sort of let the story speak for itself and and trust that Rachel was gonna tell this story in her own voice, and the reader would would be able to follow that journey with her.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

I can just tell you, just reading the setup, it feels like walking on eggshells. That's how it feels to me. And being inside Rachel's head feels a bit like that too. Like she's a person who's hedging every side. Yeah. And a person who feels like they are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't, and has been in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation and is navigating. Like I find her to be a very compelling character and complex right off the gate.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

That is absolutely what I wanted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah. I'm curious to know how long this novel took you to write from you know the conception of it to the time that it was that you pitched it.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah. So this one was a little over three years from when I started it to when it sold, which felt like a long time when I was in it. But looking back when I say that, like that doesn't really feel that long, to be perfectly honest. And I so I already had an agent at the time. I did not have to query this novel. And I worked on it for probably a year on my own. And then I worked on it for another year or so with my agent, which was really helpful because I was getting that feedback from her. And then after we sold it, I did another like six months or so of edits with my editor. So it went through a lot of rounds. And even when I thought I was like done in the sense of like when I sent it to my agent, or when I got to the point where I was like, okay, if I were querying this, like this is the point where I would have sent it out. Like there was still definitely a lot of work to do after that.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Got it. So talk about that a little bit as far as how different how much the book changed from you already mentioned that you changed the the point of view, but how how much has the book changed from the original draft to what is now that beautiful book that's sitting right next to you?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

It's so funny thinking about this because that very, very, very first draft that I poured so much into and I was so proud of. And I sent it out to a few early people to read, and none of them finished it because it was so boring. Which is really funny to think of, right? This book being boring because we've just been talking about like all the tension and this feeling that you're walking on eggshells. And I've heard other people describe it as like the whole book is kind of balanced on this knife's edge, and that, but yeah, that first draft was was not succeeding on that front. Did you want it to be that? Oh, yeah, no, I totally did. I totally did. I but I now when I look back, I can see why it was like just sort of about a girl who goes to Connecticut in the beginning. And I really needed to figure out how to like the task of my revision was constantly sort of infusing the tension and the feeling that I wanted this novel to have. Because it's not just about what happens, but it's about the way every scene is building something and the way that you so much of the book is almost like not on the page. It's like what the characters aren't saying to each other or what Rachel isn't allowing herself to think. And all of that, it was like I had to figure out how to write the parts that aren't written, but still need to come across. So if anyone is listening to this and thinking, like, oh, my novel will never get there, it's like you just I think by the time the book sold, when I think about like what were the edits that I did with my editor, at that point, it was less about changing like the story or the tone itself or really specific things that happened, like the plot was set, and more about just deepening all of these character threads. So kind of going through each character, Rachel, but also like her aunt and her uncle and the babysitter, and making sure that each person was really kind of fully realized on the page. So it's a sort of different revising process. You know, there's a part where you're revising when you're like, I am changing this entire book, which is where I currently am with book two. But then there's also the part where you're like, the book is here, and I'm not really changing the book, but I'm changing a line and I'm changing an adjective and I'm changing like a little bit of the mood of this scene. And then you step back and you're like, wow, this has been totally transformed.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

One of the things that I noticed is that Rachel is you have this narrator standing at the end looking back. Was that an early choice for you? Or was that something that came through in revisions?

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah, that's a great question, especially now that I've revealed how much of the book has changed and how much of Rachel has changed. But that reminiscent narrative voice really was part of it from the beginning. And actually, in that very, very, very, very first draft, I had about 50 pages in the beginning that were starting in Rachel's present adulthood to kind of give not just a frame story, but like to really make her present part of the plot. And then I realized I was just like delaying the start of the book. And I cut all of that and I started again. But I still wanted to keep the idea that this is someone in her late 30s looking back on the year that she was 17 and then draw that narrative voice through. And then when I got to the ending and I rewrote the ending like six different times, but I actually wound up going back to that 50-page beginning I had cut and taking some lines from that and like using that to shape the new ending that I wrote. So it's like whenever you cut, you know, keep it somewhere because you never know.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah, no words are wasted. You never know.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Exactly. Exactly. When I was like, wait, I wanna like now is the time to meet adult Rachel in her present. And oh, like I've actually done a lot of writing about her, so let me go back and find out a little bit more about who she is. But it it was a funny process of being like, I wrote all this stuff, I cut it, but I knew that I was gonna keep the core of it, namely like this reminiscent narrator. I just needed to figure out how to write it in a different way, you know, and start the story in a different place. I love that. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

It's gonna be very comforting and inspiring to a lot of people. Absolutely. Okay. Well, as you know, a big part of this podcast is just. Talking about the times when the writing process is not so pleasant, when it doesn't go smoothly, and especially about, you know, how we tend to battle ourselves. You know, it's not just the battle with the words, but it's the battle with ourselves. So given that, can you share about a time when the writing has gotten hard when you struggled? And I'd like to know what it was like and what you did to work through it.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, I feel like now I have shared a bunch of those times in the like, well, when everyone said my first draft was boring, when I totally scrapped it and rewrote it, when I realized I started in the wrong place. Yeah, so, so many points. And I think those were probably the biggest. I mean, for me, getting from the first draft to the second draft was a really big hurdle because that first draft, it's just like, I'm writing anything, like it doesn't matter, I'll fix it later. And then having to come back and being like, well, now it's later. And I have this manuscript, and like I really have to be honest with myself that it's not very good. So now what do I do? And I think for me, the in the answer in every moment is that there you have to keep going. It was like I just have to like have an honest talk with myself about how we're just gonna keep doing this. I'm gonna figure out a way through the first draft, I'm gonna figure out a way through the second draft, I'm gonna figure out a way through the 23rd draft. I'm gonna, you know, whether it's struggling with a line or a scene or like the whole concept of the novel overall, it's just like I'm stopping is not on the table here. And that for me, I think has been a really big part of it, is to just sort of like take quitting out of the equation because it's not, it's not an option. So I don't really need to think about it. And then to also trust, like it's I think this is a little bit harder, maybe starting off because you don't have as much to look back on. But I find it really important to also be able to say, okay, well, here are these other times that I have thought that I couldn't write something and I did. Like I thought that I couldn't finish that book, but I did, or I thought that that would never get published, but it did. Or I thought that I couldn't figure out that other problem in the plot. And like now I like that scene. So I just have to do it again. And so if there are other moments that you can draw on that you can look at and say, well, I'm really glad that I didn't give up then, or I was talking to myself in a really negative way, but maybe I didn't need to do that, or like maybe actually that scene turned out great. Those sorts of things I also try try to draw on to be able to say, like, and now, like now that I'm working on my second book, I find myself doing that a lot with Greenwich, where I'm like, remember when you totally rewrote Greenwich and you thought that that was terrible and a huge waste of time? Well, now you have a book. So as you're rewriting the second book and think that it's terrible, like maybe it will work out in the end. And there's a way in which it also gets trickier because it's like, well, I was able to do that with Greenwich, so why am I struggling so much now? But that's like you were saying, it's like the way that we talk to ourselves have such a huge impact. And sometimes I think, well, if I could just like get out of my own way and stop talking to myself like that, like I could just write the book instead of beating myself up about it. So easier said than done, definitely. But I think just having like having a little bit of aware of self-awareness that says the voice in my head that thinks that I'm stupid and this writing sucks, it's not really an accurate person that I need to listen to right now. Um I could right just say, like, well, thanks for your input, but not that helpful. I'm gonna go keep working. You know, that also for me is an important way to like just keep pushing through it.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah. And I think you're right. I mean, when we're early in our writing journey, it's very, very difficult to cultivate that kind of a mindset. Like, I've done this before, I can do it again, kind of thing. Right. But listening to other people who have walked through it, like yourself. I know that's true for me. You know, that's one of my favorite pieces of listening to other authors' stories, is hearing the journey of how they went from I don't know how to I don't know how yet, but here's some steps I can take to figure it out, to I did the thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Yes. Yeah, I'm doing the thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

I love that journey.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

And that was for me, I mean, that was why I wanted to come on the podcast too, was I feel like I have gained so much from hearing other writers talk about it that I was like, I want to pay that forward. I want to be like hopefully part of that experience for somebody else. Like if one person is struggling with their manuscript and then hears me say, like, I also struggled and I kept writing. And so they keep writing. Like, this is this is how the cycle goes for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Absolutely. This is creating ripple effects in the world. And the hope is that, you know, more people will be like, oh, okay. So this is just a process. Yeah. And I'm gonna, if I stick with it, right, you know, more we'll get more voices and more stories, and hopefully from people that maybe not wouldn't have have told them, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

And they're like, you're not doing anything wrong if it's hard. Like it's supposed to be hard. That's that probably is a sign that you're on the right track, that it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah. And the other myth is, and you kind of touched on this, you know, you're working on a second book and you're having, you know, you some of these things are popping up, you know, these bits of doubt. Doesn't mean the next book's gonna be any easier. I had that misconception. I was like, okay, if I get through this one, my next one is just easier, right? And in some ways, yes, in other ways, no. Like you get more confident about the mechanics of it, but not necessarily about the pulling of the story together or how the story should be pulled together.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

The book is still its own beast. And I think that I mean, I think that that's really important to keep in mind too, especially because like most debut novels that you see published are not the author's first book. It's not when the author just like sat down and, oh, like this novel idea came to me and I wrote it up and I got an agent and I got my huge book deal. Like, writing is great. Maybe that happens for some people, like, good for them. I don't want to hear about it because for the rest of us, like it's book after book after book. And I think it's it can be really easy to get stuck in the like, okay, well, like my first book didn't quite work, or my first book didn't get an agent, but I'm gonna try again. I think it's gonna be easier next time. And then when it's not easier, it can be that much more tempting to quit. And so I also think hearing, you know, not only is the first book hard, but the second book also is hard. I'm sure the third book will be hard too. Like, it's not to be discouraging. I I hear myself saying that and I'm like, Kate, don't just talk about how hard it is. But it's again just remembering that that's part of the process and and that that's where the joy is, right? Like that's where the work is in this. And there's never gonna be a point where it all just like falls into place, but that wrestling with the writing is writing. And that's why I think we want to keep doing it, you know, the first book, the fifth book, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Right. I mean, I think writers enjoy the I know I do. I like I like the challenge, even though there are days where it just makes me want to pull my hair out, but it's the puzzle, it's the puzzle.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

I love the problem solving.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah. Even on the days where I like want to drop my head on my desk and be like, why did I think this was a good idea?

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Why did I do this? I know. Absolutely. But then, like, you think about the days where you're like, this is the best feeling in the world, and I can't believe I get to do this, and I just want to do it again.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

And that is the truth. For me, that was like when I figured out I could actually create a first draft that I could finish a manuscript, and and I, you know, the the complaints and the hard parts and all the things. And when I got to the end of it, all I could think about was what am I gonna write next? Yeah, like yeah, like what's next, right? We're doing this again, right? Like we're still gonna do this. Yeah. So you've been writing for a long time, and and confidence comes through action, taking action and doing the thing that we want to do. We gradually build it up. And with that comes some resiliency too. Because as you said, you can look back and you can go, okay, well, I can frame this in a lens that helps me realize, you know, what I've done in the past, what I can probably do in the future. But before you were there, before you had all of that, I think we have kind of a resiliency bank too that we can draw from, right? So before that bank really got built up, when you were a newer writer, what kind of doubts did you struggle with? And and how over the years, what resources or tools do you feel like you've reached for that have been helpful to you?

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Yeah, it is so true that we need so much resiliency to write and to put our our work out there. You know, publishing is separate from writing, but they both have a lot of tricky parts and you hear no a lot, and you do have to. I mean, you have to have a thick skin, but you also have even more than that. I think like you have to be able to bounce back and to say, okay, I got knocked down, but this isn't, you know, the last thing that I'm ever gonna write, or this one person isn't going to have the final say over what happens with my writing or my career or whatever. And I think, I mean, some of that is just for me trying to think like, what did I draw on? It was always about coming back to the writing and always having the project and always having that feeling that I want to be writing and I want to be working on this, and something didn't work out, but I want to be writing, or this person said no, but I want to be writing. And I think not having then like continuing to write new projects is probably the biggest favor that I've done myself. I don't, I didn't necessarily know when I was in the middle of it what a difference that would make. But when I look back, I had projects that I was continuing to work on, but also then sort of getting back in the saddle means writing something new. And so it wasn't just, well, I've poured decades and all of my soul into this one manuscript. And so if it doesn't land, I have nothing to sh, you know, for all of this work. It was like, well, I've worked on that and I took it as far as I could, and it didn't get the outcome that I wanted, and maybe I'll come back to it. But I also have another idea that I'm excited about and I'm gonna start writing that. And I think with each book, like I got better. That's part of it, is like giving I gave myself a chance to become a better writer for those setbacks because I kept writing and and so kept. I mean, even as we were saying each each book is hard, yes, but you also develop more tools. And I think in part also like each book is harder because I'm trying to level up with each book. Like I'm trying to also be a better writer with each book. And so just like continuing to develop my tools and sort of sharpen my skill set with this has been has been a really big part of the process too. I don't know, like, did I answer your question? I'm thinking, like, well, I've cried a lot, like a lot of crying. But then it's like, well, I'm gonna keep writing. I was on a panel for the Brooklyn Book Festival and someone asked the question, what made us think that we could write a book? And I was like, oh, spite. And like spent the whole, spent the whole panel being like, oh no, my answer to that is spite, uh, which is which is also a big driving thing. Like, oh, my agent dropped me. Like, you were gonna see that I'm gonna get a book published, or like, oh, you didn't want this manuscript. Well, it's gonna get published eventually. Like you, I it seemed like I couldn't do this. Well, like, watch me do it. Each book also gets harder because I make each book harder. The challenge is also proportional to like the joy and satisfaction, I think, when we were talking about like solving the puzzle or solving the problem. It's like if it's an easy problem and you solve it, then like whatever, that's not gonna change your life. But when something is really tricky and you figure out how to make it work, that is a satisfaction that is unparalleled.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah, it absolutely is. And I just wish there was like a three-step process, you know, that I can use to like come to the resolution of the problem to make those puzzle pieces slide in place. But I have not found a repeatable concoction. It's some piece of like a weird dream, and then I take a shower, and then I'm on the walk of my dog, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, oh, of the shower. The shower is a bit chronic.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

And like I've spent like all day like working on this one problem and tearing at my hair and trying to solve this one paragraph in the manuscript, and I totally give up, and now I'm going like I'm gonna have a cup of tea and take a shower and go for a walk, and then immediately it's like, oh, I just need to do this thing. Yeah. Why didn't I think of that sooner?

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah, right. I have no idea why it works that way, but it does seem to do that. But it does. It totally does. All right, I just have a couple questions before we wrapped up. When you look back, what do you think is a piece of writing advice that you have held on to that's kind of functioned maybe like a North Star for you?

SPEAKER_02 35:15

The So the thing that I come back to as a touchstone a lot was I'm not from another writer, but a friend of mine. When I so I stopped writing romance novels because I was really trying to devote myself to this literary fiction and was having a hard time because I had manuscripts that didn't sell. I had short fiction that wasn't getting placed. I felt like all I was doing was getting rejected all the time. And I said to my really good friend, I was like, I'm never gonna get published again. Like I had a thriving publishing career. I had contracts for my romance novels. I could have gotten another contract, like I gave up a whole functioning writing career. What was I thinking? And my friend was like, look, say you have like 50 years left of life. I mean, ideally, who knows? But she was like, You're you're not gonna not be published for 50 years. Like if you keep writing for 50 years, someone will publish you somewhere. It's just like a little thing that I've kept in my pocket ever since, because I think it's true. It's like any time that I am stuck in whatever moment I'm stuck in, I will just think about like it's not gonna be this way for the next 50 years. Like I am stuck tearing my hair about out about book two, but like I'm not gonna be working on this book for 50 years. Or I'm, you know, like when you say that, it just like this shift in time and perspective just kind of brings me back to myself a little bit and puts all of this stuff in its proper place. And I have been published many times over beyond my wildest dreams, since my friend said this, and it didn't even take 50 years. So it, you know, it kind of just reminds me, it's not specifically about the writing, but it, but it is about writing because it's about it, just reminds me to keep going and also to kind of put this stuff in in perspective and and to remember like a lot of the stress of this is pressure that I've put on myself. And it's pressure that I put on myself to meet some like arbitrary timeline that doesn't make any sense. Even even if it's a publishing deadline, like if you miss the deadline, the world does not end. Like if your book comes out six months later, that's fine. And so when I sort of switch from like the immediacy of the pressure that I put myself under right now into thinking in terms of decades, or like, what am I gonna think about this book in 20 years or 30 years? You know, what am I gonna write in however much time I have left? Just makes me feel a little bit differently about the project.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

I love that response. We tend to hold our focus so far out in the future and balance our expectations around it, right? We all experience and feel this big gap from where we are to where we want to be. Yes. Yeah. And the thing that closes the gap is the work in front of us. So finding ways to just stay in the work and narrow the focus and lower the expectations and just because that gap's gonna close itself only if we show up and do the thing we want to do. That's the only way it does. Not to say we can't complain about it while it's happening. That's fine too.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

But but I'd love your own. But it's just, you know, it's about showing up. And when you think about like if I show up every day for, I mean, I don't know if I'll live another 50 years, but you know, 40 years, whatever. Like you just think about if I, you know, butt in chair for that amount of time, like something will happen. Yeah. And I showed up and did the thing that I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

So I ask every writer that comes on the podcast, what is your wish for your fellow writers out there?

SPEAKER_02 38:54

I love this question. Oh, my wish is for everyone to find that feeling when you're so deep in the work that it like becomes its own whole, its own thing that just envelops you. There's this feeling that I get when I'm deep in something, and it just exists as its own entity almost. It's like I'm solving the puzzle, but I'm creating the puzzle at the same time. And the project kind of takes on its own life. And that's when I feel like the manuscript has legs and that I'm really working on something meaningful. And I I wish for other people to have that meaning for themselves. And that really has nothing to do with publishing the piece. It has nothing to do with selling the piece, it has nothing to do with getting accolades for the piece. It kind of even doesn't really have to do with the reader and whether the reader likes the piece, but about like I want for other writers the fact of writing.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

That's beautiful. So would you like to share anything that you have that you are working on or anything that's coming up? And then please let listeners know where they can find you and and Grinwich.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

My website is KateBroad.com, and that has all the links to I'm on Instagram as Kate Broadbooks. I have a substack called Axe Ask an Author that's an advice column where I answer questions that people write in about craft and publishing, a lot of querying, a lot of, you know, how do you keep going when it feels like nothing is falling into place? Because there are so many of these questions and so many of these conversations. So you can find me there as well. And then I've alluded to in this that I am working on a second book, and that is coming out, assuming I can finish it, coming out summer 2027. So there will be news about that. But for now, I mean, Greenwich has only been out for three months. Maybe it'll be four by the time this airs. So that's ages in publishing time, but it still feels like a new project to me. So Greenwich is out everywhere, and I'm just kind of riding this incredible experience for as long as I can.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Thank you for listening to the Ride It Scared podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. And please leave a review. Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories. Let's lift each other up. Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable. I'll see you next week.