SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think every writer in the planet should go through their day mining their day of like, huh, maybe I'll put that down for later. Like, maybe someone said something that was snarky or interesting or weird or wildly offensive, and you're like, I can mind this and have an instant relationship for later.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacy Fraser, a formerly repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach. At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories: the one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it. This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully. Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers. Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone. Welcome to Red It Scared. I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hey writer, welcome back to the Write It Scared podcast, where we talk about the brave and messy act of writing our novels so that we can do it with more clarity and more confidence, a bit more humor, and not feel so alone. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, and today I have another amazing guest interview to share with you. I'm talking with Christine Ma Kellums about her debut novel, The Band, which is about a psychologist with the Savior Complex who offers shelter to a recently canceled K-pop idol. It was a fantastic chat, and we touched on how to take ourselves a little less seriously when we're editing and how it's completely okay to mine your life experiences for the things that will make your novel unique, and how to work past the uncomfortable voice inside that questions whether or not your work is truly good enough so that you can just continue to write what you enjoy. I will give you Christine's bio and then we will jump into the interview. Christine Maw Kellums is a Harvard-trained cultural psychologist, pushcart-nominated fiction writer, and first generation American. Her work and writing have appeared in Huff Post, Chicago Tribune, Catapult, Salon, The Wall Street Journal, The Rumpus, and many more publications. The Band is her first novel. Hi, Christine. Thanks for coming on the Right It Scared podcast. It's so great to have you here today. How's it going? Pretty good. Super excited to be here. Yeah, we get to talk about your novel, the band, and about K-pop, which is Oh my god, all my favorite things. Which is also my daughter's favorite thing, and now I'm hooked into it too. So before we roll in, why don't you just share a bit more about your journey to becoming a writer with our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah, so I like to call writing my side hustle because like I have a full-time job as a psychologist and a college professor. So writing is what I do at night when like the kids are asleep and like no one bothers me. So it's sort of just something I've always loved. Like I wanted to, I mean, I've like loved beating like my whole life, and so I've always wanted to write stories. But I think it took a while to find the kind of story that I thought only I could write. And so if you get into the band, you'll notice really quickly that there's like a lot of psych in there. There's obviously a lot of K-pop. Like K-pop is the premise, but the like underlying motor or the thing that drives it, I think, is like questions about you know mental health and how we understand our own contradictory thoughts and feelings and how we make sense of how to be a human in this like ever-expanding modern universe where there's you know constant social media and AI sort of driving our lives. So when I discovered K-pop as a as like just a fan, I realized it would be really neat to tell a story using psychology as an angle. And so I just started writing like at home when I wasn't at work and you know, sold it relatively quickly, like through an agent, like through the traditional publishing route. And so it's been really fun ever since to do my hobby as like almost like an entirely second career.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. When did you start working on this novel?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

I feel like it was a lifetime ago, but it was back in 2020, right after it was like Christmas, the Christmas after the pandemic, which is right around the time I discovered BTS, but also like the time where you know we were all still at home. Like I was working, like all my classes had like moved to online. I was like at home with the kids and the husband. And so to drive myself, to keep myself occupied and drive myself, like keep myself from not going crazy. Writing was sort of just like the a no-brainer. And I think in particular, after discovering K-pop, and I think BTS was blowing up in America right around that time. Like they had been obviously well known for a while now, but they started really permeating like American audiences. They were like on SNL, they were on like James Corden show, they were like on Jimmy Kimmel or Jimmy Fallon, one of the Jimmies, like shortly thereafter. So, like I think I was discovering K-pop right around the time a lot of other Americans were discovering, like BTS and K-pop. And so it really, it all the novel happened right around the same time.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

So, why don't you tell us what the book is about?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah, so it essentially follows a canceled K-pop boy band who the one of the members escapes to America to try to sort of like leave all his troubles behind, and he accidentally runs into like an Asian American therapist in a local H Mart, like an Asian grocery store, and like follows her home because he's sort of on the verge of like a mental health crisis. And she attempts to try to help him and solve his problems, but what neither of them know is that like their sort of their efforts to resolve his crises ends up producing like more problems of its own. And so in an award show bombing that changes the way we listen to music and consume music, not only for K-pop, but for the music industry at large. So that's the that's the nutshell version of the book.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, great, a great premise. And what genre is this book classified under?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

You know, I always thought of it as like literary/slash upmarket, but when it came out, I was sort of pleasantly surprised that my publisher, like I only found this out through like Goodreads and the Goodreads categories. I found that they also deemed it like suspense slash thriller. So it's like I guess it does have those kind of elements in it, and it is, and I did not realize this when I was writing it, but like when I looked at some of my like book reviews, like they want one reviewer to point out it's like very quickly paced, which I did not even realize I did. And I said, okay, I'll take it. I play fast paced. So I guess it has those elements in it.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

But when you pitched it, what did you pitch it as?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

I pitched it as like in my mind, I'm like a literary person through and through. Like I really just like literary fiction. My editor at Atria is more of like an upmarket kind of gal, and like she's pretty explicit. So I think we like the the most obvious one is like literary slash upmarket.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

So why don't you tell us a little bit about your writing process?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah, so I like to like I don't know how other writers do it, but like my advice to other writers is always don't feel guilty doing whatever, however much or little you want to put into a manuscript before submitting to an editor. And I feel like it's almost like blasphemous to say this, but like I wrote the draft pretty quickly. I did a fairly light edit myself, and then I sent it off to my agent who did like, I think a relatively light edit. And then she sent it off to the to the editor who bought it like in three days. So I know the standard like industry advice is to like, oh, edit, edit, edit, like do a shitty first draft and then you know, edit the hell out of it. And I'm like, you don't have to edit if you don't feel like you need to. Like, feel free to just do a light edit and then turn it in. Like, and I and and I realize this might be like a personality thing. Like, I'm not a perfectionist, like I'm the opposite of a perfectionist. Like, I was like, it's everything is imperfect. And I in the world of AI where machines can create everything, I actually think there's a great beauty in imperfection. So my advice to people is like, edit if you feel like it needs editing. You're pretty confident in what you put out, just like send it out already. Like, don't sit on it and like torture yourself over like every period and punctuation. And like the book is gonna go do multiple edits, like whoever you send it to, right? Your agent's gonna edit it probably. Your editor's definitely gonna edit it. Like, yeah, and don't worry about it too much. If you feel good about your story, just like just let it go and like send it out into the universe. And that's that was my trajectory at least.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Well, it worked for you, it worked for you beautifully, and it is that's kind of a breath of fresh air, because I will tell you that it is that is the opposite of what we typically hear. And we typically hear that most manuscripts are not ready in today's market because it's so competitive in the traditional space, and very competitive for readers in the independent space too, for reader attention. In in the independent space. So I am happy that that process worked for you. And I hope just by talking to you that you rub off on me a little bit. That would be fan freaking tastic.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

And no, according, like going back to the competitive thing, I absolutely agree. It is insanely competitive. Like even when I go into like a bookstore now or a library, I'm like, oh my God, just the sheer number of books that are published that I don't have any idea about is like mind-boggling. But I think the competition doesn't necessarily mean that you should change your strategy. So it's like, I feel like the parallel is sort of like in the job market. So like taking a tangent slightly, I like I think we live in an era now where like it might be ever more competitive in any industry, including just like outside of writing, like just finding a job, right? Because like with a click of a button, you can apply to like any number of positions all over the world. And I think I hear lots of stories and I see lots of articles being written about how like even employers are being inundated. Like every time they post a job ad, they're getting hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants, right? And I just assume it's something very similar in literature that like whether you're an agent getting queries or you're an editor, you're getting you're getting inundated with like manuscripts. So I do agree that's more competitive than ever. But I also sort of think, like, and again, maybe it's blasphemy, I also still think it's sort of a crapshoot. Like it's almost like it's more competitive, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be perfect to get attention. Like it's still sort of a crapshoot at the end of the day. The the the level of like like randomness and luck that goes into it, I don't think has changed. So that's what I'm all for. Like, just send it out. If you don't get lucky, try again and just keep trying. You know, eventually something will probably turn and don't like you know, drive yourself crazy in the meantime, like trying to get it perfect, even though it is competitive.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah. Yeah. So I used to really hate that idea that there was this component of luck and timing to things in in the publishing industry. But the longer I'm around, the more I have to admit that there is an element of when you know a work is primed to be like met with people that are hungry for it. I don't necessarily think that publishing always gets it right, you know, when that is, but for example, with your book being about K-pop, and here I have a nine-year-old obsessed with it that's so that's bringing it into my consciousness. And then what we've experienced with cancel culture, all of those things, that's a perfect melting pot. And here's a story, right? That hits all of those. Like, hmm, oh yeah, I I'm interested in that. So I mean, that's just a beautiful soup, right? For your work to come forward in. So all that to say is I I love your idea. If you love the writing, if you if that is the thing that gives you the joy and the creativity, being able to let go a little bit and focus more on the the work that lights you up than the end outcome. And we're always I'm always talking about that on whether it's with my clients or on the podcast or whatever. But focusing on the act of creating for the sake of creating, that's pretty damn cool. Yeah. Right. Okay. So you said that the your novel was inspired by a kind of a mix of real-world events and your own psychological research. And you had mentioned that you feel like writers can really draw on their non-fiction experience, whether that's, you know, from their career, which it sounds like you're drawing from your career as a clinical psychologist, but even their hobbies or whatever their interest is, and to create these fresh kind of hooks, things that are really compelling in their fiction. Would you like to share how that process worked for you and any tips that you might give to writers?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah, I think the advice that I find the most encouraging actually comes from studies. And I was just talking with my students about this the other day, because my students are, you know, now more than ever obsessed with AI, right? And I think a really interesting study that came out that should give encouragement to all writers looked at what happened when you gave, and in the study, I think they gave people who were not necessarily good at writing. But I think the same applies regardless of your, you know, like capacity or you know, skill level. In the study, they essentially gave writers AI tools or not, and looked to see like can AI like essentially take your job, right? Can it improve your writing? Can it help you? And what they found was it it could improve like the writing, but the stories that AI produced were were less unique. They were more generic, they were more just like com like similar, and there was like far like lower levels of uniqueness that came out of those stories. And the long story short, I think Neil the Grotta Ison talks about this too when he talks about why he's not scared of AI. He's like, AI can be great at working with what's already out there, but AI will never overtake like the creative person because it's the job of the creative person to come up with something brand new that has a story that hasn't been told, a version, a character that hasn't had this like precise configuration of events, extenuating circumstances, et cetera. And so I think that's why it's now more than ever all the more important for people to really draw on their personal experiences, like their life experiences, to think about like what have they gone through and not just like the individual experience. Like, you know, a lot of people may have like gone through a messy relationship or had childhood trauma or like all these other things. So not necessarily focus on the broad category of like what you categorize that experience, but think about like the nitty-gritty, like how it smelled in the room when you went through that particular experience, or like when you go to work, like what the office feels like, like what kind of crumbs or ends up underneath your fingernails at the end of the day. And to really draw on those like highly unique idiosyncratic experiences as a platform for figuring out their story. And don't worry about like what, you know, like what the overarching theme is. And I would actually like just start with the details, like start with uh like an interaction. I work on short stories too, and sometimes they turn into novels. Sometimes like I'll just build an entire story in my mind around a single interaction, like a conversation, verbatim, that I essentially like try to remember in my head, and I put it down on paper, and I was like, I could probably build a story around this, right? And I hear comedians do the same thing. Like Jerry Seinfeld talks a lot about how like all the people in his life are sort of treat him with a slight level of suspicion because they know that he is constantly mining their interactions for material for his stand-up later. And I'm like, that's brilliant. I think every writer in the planet should go through their day mining their day. I'm like, huh, maybe I'll put that down for later. Like, maybe someone said something that was snarky or interesting or weird or wildly offensive, and you're like, I can mine this antagonistic relationship for later, right? Or maybe it meets a stranger on the street. Like, I've written entire short stories based on conversations I had with people that I like just met, right? Or sometimes I overhear a conversation. I like over overhear two people talking, like at a gym, and I'm like, did they really say what I thought they said? That's so fascinating. So it doesn't have to be anything groundbreaking. It doesn't have to be like what you got your degree in necessarily, although it could. Like it could just be like, you know, your everyday experiences, be on the lookout and mind those for like something you can build. And I think all of that goes into your subconscious. And when you sit down in front of a computer to put words to a page, like you'll rely on that like subconscious storage chest of all the things that you've got to do. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

That's such a great way to say it.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah. And then you know, you'll like make magic out of it. And I think that's that's the part that's like the the most interesting thing that can come out of like people's stories.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah. So what I'm taking away from that is be curious. Be curious in your everyday life. Possibly be an eavesdropper always. I definitely know I do that. I'm quite I've caught myself many times. So be curious, pay attention, uh, and then trust your subconscious and your own uniqueness. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think we could all probably use a reminder of that. Because it's so easy to be distracted. And I can't tell you how often I hear writers say, All the good ideas are taken. You know, that's one of the pieces of resistance that tends to come up for them. Is like, I'm not, I don't feel like make anything new or creative, and maybe their chest just isn't open quite enough yet.

unknown 17:51

Right?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Maybe the conscious chest isn't open quite enough yet.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

I think Pramonago like famously said there's only so many storylines. There's like what he documented like eight like different storylines. He's like, every story ever written falls into one of these like trajectories. All right, fine, maybe in that sense, all the good ideas are taken in the sense you're not gonna like recreate like necessarily like a story arc, maybe is the best way to put it. But I'm like, the the strategy we do in like social sciences and in psych when we like write papers and do research and come up with new research projects, is like we don't have to reinvent the wheel, right? We're not coming up with a brand new paradigm out of thin air. What we're doing most of the time in science is we're revising and like making it better. We're taking something that's already been done and we're like, okay, that was fine. That was good even. But let's see if we can make it better. Let's like t put a twist on it or like tweak it somehow, or like put it in a whole new like cultural context, or add this new element that the previous, you know, creators didn't do.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Why do we do that? Why do we do that? Why do we have the capability to do that? Because we all come from individual experiences.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah, exactly. So I think the writers, even if you feel like the good ideas even take it, just tweak it, modify it, add something new, like uh make it about your own personal, you know, take on that.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

I love that. I can't remember the name of the author, but there's a book called Still Like an Artist that talks about that. And in it, there's the famous quote that says, you know, don't worry about being original. There's nothing original. But yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That was awesome. Such great wisdom, such great insight. So a big part of this podcast is dedicated to telling the truth about why creating our stories can be so hard, talking about some of those unhelpful internal narratives that many of us face when we when we write our stories. And the reason that we bring this up is because I think it's helpful to identify these thoughts, normalize them, and then we can work through them, you know, and instead of being stuck by them, and that way, as a collective of writers, we keep growing. And that will result in more of us staying in it and more stories in the world. Right. So having said that, can you reflect on a time either in this book or in something else that you've written where maybe you felt like the the process was hard, where you had doubts, where you felt like you were struggling, and what happened and how did you get through it?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's constant. Like, I think even like I used to think that, like, oh, once you got a book out, like the voice goes away. But no, absolutely I think if anything, once you have a book out, the voice gets caught over.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

What's the voice? What's the voice? What's it say?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Uh, or like I guess the voice of yeah, and I think for me, maybe it's the opposite. Like, when I'm writing, I actually don't hear that voice. Like when I'm in the zone and I'm just writing and I just think about my story, I'm like, I don't, I cannot multitask. And indeed, I think most of the research shows no one's actually very good at multitasking. But I think it's in the quiet of like when your baby's out there in the world. Like once once you sit the the quiet that I can't stand the most when I hear the voice uh the loudest is like when I've sent something out and I'm waiting for a response. Or like when the book is published and it's crickets, like you don't know what's happening, like in the hands of readers. I think that's when I'm like, wait, does my writing suck? Am I terrible? Am I never gonna write another story ahead? Am I delusional like to think that this was a one time, like a one-off? Like maybe I just got like I think the luck goes both ways. Like it's luck in the sense that you just keep trying because you know it's a crapshoot and you embrace the chaos. But also the flip side of luck is that like if you do like get a book deal, or if you do like become published, then you wonder, like, well, maybe that was just luck. I was just lucky, right? Like this is a one-off, it's not necessarily gonna happen again. So I think that voice doesn't go away. And I don't know if this is wise or just reckless, but the way I deal with that voice is to just work on another project. Because you know how like you can't multitask. So the parts of your brain that are dedicated to like creating characters and like giving them voices and dialogue is the same. Part of your brain, I think, that talks to you and tells you things about like your own skill level and ability. So like you can't you can't you can't like unless you're you know, unless you have a personality disorder, there's no way like listen to multiple voices at the same time. Just like if you ever try this, like this is how you know. Like you try listening to music, like listening to a song while singing another song out loud, like you just can't do it, right? It's impossible. Like, and if you don't believe it, yeah, just try it. Like have a video playing, like have a song in in English, like in whatever language you speak, because like you could probably do it in another language, probably do it to classical music. Or like, you know, a line also song playing in a language you speak, and then try to like sing a different song in the same language. Like you're just not gonna be able to do it. Like you can't sing Sabrina Carpenter and like Chaperone at the same time. Like it's just not possible. Or any other, any other to take to you two of your favorite musicians, right? So I think because you can't do your brain is not built to do that, the only way I find to quiet my voice, or to make it like shut up, is to just work on something new. Like any, and I always joke, that's why like I'm most productive. People are like, oh, how did you write a novel in three months? I wrote that novel in three months because I had sent another novel out. Like I was querying another novel, and it was like taking too long because publishing is so insanely slow that I was like losing my mind. And so I was like, the only way to keep my mental health is to just write a new novel while I'm waiting. So anytime I'm waiting, I just write a new novel or write a new story. And it doesn't always like pan into something. Sometimes it's like writing nonfiction or writing like short stories, like it doesn't always have to be like this grand work that you're working on, but I think that's the easiest way to like take advantage of the fact that you can't multitask. And so you gotta just do one thing at a time. So to shut the voice up, just find another story, to start telling.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

When did you start writing fiction? And when did you actually start writing novels? How long ago was your very first one that you ever wrote?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Oh God. I mean, I think I tried writing my first novel right at when I graduated college, and it was like horrendous. It was like so awful. I don't even know where that manuscript is. Because I mean, that's the that's the other thing. Like, I was a psych major and a Spanish lit major in college, but like when I was a kid, I read for fun, and then like I think once I got in high school, because I was one of those nerds that like took like all AP classes and is like obsessed with studying, and then same in college, right? Like, and then in grad school. So, like I just spent too much of my life, I think, reading because I had to read, like for class, that by the time I got done with my schooling and I tried to write fiction, I just wasn't very good at it because I wasn't like a reading for passion. I was just reading because I had to read. And I really think you learn how to be a good writer by reading like stuff that you absolutely love that you can't put down, right? Like, that's how you know what good writing is. So, yeah, I think it took a few iterations to figure out like how to write a decent novel.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

I think that's true for all of us, really. I mean, first books are they're first, they're designed to teach us, right? And I think that's excellent advice, you know. Being uh a reader of what you like in writing what you like, you're gonna absorb that. And you're gonna instinctually absorb a lot of that. And I have the same type of story. I I have very linear background, educational background, and all of that, and read things that I had to read and journals that I had to read for years and years and years. So the idea of writing, I could write you an academic paper, right, but not definitely not entertaining you. Yes, that's what I could explain my p-value and all of the things, you know what I mean? But yeah, so I think it just takes it just takes a while, it takes what it takes, and as long as you're pursuing it and because you like it, right? And it's you know, it's what you like to do. That's all that really matters. Awesome. So what would you say that you know, reflecting back from that first novel to now, what would you say you've learned about your creative process over the years?

SPEAKER_01 26:14

I have to read as much as I write. Like there's no there's no having one without the other. So like I read constantly. Not like every day, but I like I'm always if I'm not writing, I'm like reading. And when I'm when I have a writer's block, I read because the reading is inspiration. But one of the things I discovered that I only discovered semi-recently now that I like, like just for fun, like I volunteer as like an editor on like lit magazines, so I get a lot of like slush pile submissions, like short stories and nonfiction. I realize when I read a piece and I don't like it, I keep reading. And then I just make sure to remember what I don't like, like why it's why it's driving me insane. And the same for goes for books. I know a lot of people have like DNF. Like they'll write like DNF, DNF. They reviews though or in their comments. And I'm like, I never DNF. Like I think I have a problem count on one finger. Number of books I've done. Wow. Two fingers. Number of books I DNF'd. I don't DNF because when I when a book drives me insane and I hate it, I keep reading. I just read it faster. Like I'll skim more, maybe, and I'll just try to get through it as quickly as I can. Because I want to burn into my head what I hate about it, what it was about the book that like didn't draw me or upset me, or like I thought was like mind-numblingly boring. And then I'll hopefully remember that from what I write. So I guess the thing I've learned about the creative process is that good or bad, like you want to just be intentional as a reader because that'll help your writing and make you a better writer, including reading stuff that you don't like.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Paying attention to the things that you like as well as the things that you don't like. But that analysis helps us become stronger writers. So, what would you say one of the best pieces of writing or creative advice you've ever received as what's something that you've held on to? I don't even know this is advice.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Maybe this is encouragement. That works too. So, Rufie Thwarp, who wrote Margot's Got Money Troubles, I met her at a like an author event a while ago. And I can't remember if she said this out loud during the author event or she like wrote this down on like Instagram and like posted it and I saw it. When she she gets credit, she said something to the effect of there's no such thing as talent. And I remember being like like gassed when I saw that. I'm like, what do you think is no such thing as talent? Wait, I don't want to think I'm talented. And I think her point was she was like, just write. Like, who cares if you're talented? Don't worry about if you're talented or not talented, how much talent you have relative to other people. If she I think her point was like, that's neither here nor there. That's like irrelevant to the actual process. Just write. Like if you feel like you have a story to tell, just put that story down, send it off, like and don't worry about whether you're quote unquote talented or not. And I actually think that's really liberating and like decent advice, because I think that also means that like you don't have to compare yourself to other people. Like it's not like, oh, if someone's more successful that they're necessarily more talented. And having s seen some of this stuff up close, I'm like, I don't know if there's a correlation. Like, I don't know if there's there's a reliable correlation between talent and success. Like I think it might it might be non-significant. So all that's in me, like, don't worry about that. Like, don't worry about your skill set. Just think about do you have a story worth telling? And then how do you get that story out? Like, what's the most efficient or effective way of getting that story out? That's probably the best advice.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

I love it. And what would be your wish for your fellow writers who are working on their debut novel? What would you like to impart to them? Maybe it was just that. Let's do it and get it.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

I mean, probably that. And also, I mean, just on the logistical side. To probably like not worry about their branding. When they get it out, like depends on sort of what side of the aisle they're on, like if they are if they're already published and they are like deep in the trenches of like author branding, or they're like about to be, or like planning, like giving up for it. I think, I think either way, like one of the things that I did not know was such a big deal until I like I became a debut author was like, oh, I think in the world of social media now, like having the social media presence, like being concerned about your personal quote unquote brand is like top of mind for most people. And I'm not saying do it or don't do it, like do whatever floats your boat. But I'm just saying, like, don't obsess over it. Cause I think like what I found since the book came out is that like social media is great. I think it's really fun. I love it as much as the next person, but I I'm unsure how much it moves the needle one way or another in terms of like what it means for like your like book sales or things like that. So, bottom line, like because I've seen like really successful people on social media, like people who have gone viral, like who people who've gone on like primetime TV because of how viral they've gone on social media. And I've also seen people who like, you know, post to their, you know, small handful of followers and and that's it. And I honestly can't tell you, like, going viral necessarily does that much for their book career one way or another. So I know like everyone seems to like want that and think that that's somehow the answer, but I think in the end, like do it if you love it, but if you don't love it, like don't feel pressured to like and don't worry about like your social media presence a lot as an author.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

I have friends and other writers, you know, that that are in the query process that are some are worried about having any type of a platform. Well and and then you know, there's the others that are like I don't care. Uh a friend of mine signed not too long ago with uh with an agent and has zero, absolutely zero refuses 100% to be on social media. Yeah, that's just how they roll. And then, you know, there's other like independently published authors who are killing it because of punk tongue, right? Yes, exactly. So it's it's like kind of like that crapshoot. Like we were the what did you say earlier? Embracing the chaos, yeah, yeah, and doing like what you feel is right for yourself instead of feeling pressured by external factors, right? Absolutely. Okay, well, before we wrap up, are there any new projects that you you're working on you'd like to share with us if you can? And then where can listeners follow along, find you, and support you in your work?

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yeah, I mean, I'm always working on new projects, so I have another manuscript that's probably going out for submission semi-soon. That's actually, you know, you talk about book talk. Like I am obsessed with TikTok. And the new manuscript is actually like a I call them a TikTok novel. It's literally like TikTok in book form, the way I see it. And it's about like that, it's specifically it follows like a trad wife, like a TikTok-esque-esque trad wife. And I like just as a sociological or a psychological phenomenon, I'm so fascinated by the rise of like a new trad wife phenomenon.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

I don't even what's a trad wife?

SPEAKER_01 33:22

I don't know what that is. Not see that. So a trad wife is usually like an exceedingly uh like conventionally attractive, usually young-ish woman who has a full career and like money, but somehow chooses to act in the most domesticated traditional sense possible. Like she will spend hours making her own cereal for her three children and husband in the morning, like even though she has like a career.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

She probably doesn't sleep.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I do, right? Like, I was like, and it's a huge trend on TikTok. Like, there's these like women who could probably just live off of their social media platforms alone, but who decide to, you know, film themselves doing like very elaborate. Like as a mom, I'm just like, Are you kidding me? You make your own cereal. Like, I cannot get my children out of the house fast enough in the morning. I am not making like I want them to pour their own cereal. That's my end game. Like, I don't want, I don't want to be involved at all in breakfast. That's the dream. So these women are like toiling for like three hours to like make cornflakes from like ears of corn that they husk. I am both like disgusted, but also fascinated.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Isn't it funny how those two things usually come together?

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah, I was just like, I'm also depressed because I'm like, maybe I just don't have the patience for this, and other people have a better personality than I do. Still, it's a novel sort of built on that premise. So yeah, that's a huge tangent. Now you can look up crowd wifery. I'm going to. Yeah. So yeah, I'm not on the socials, and I don't take myself too seriously. I post book stuff, but I also post just like life stuff because I like I do like travel writing like for fun on the side. And so a lot of the stuff that I'm posting these days have to do with like travel and doing all that other good stuff. So, like, yeah, I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, I'm is anybody on Twitter or X anymore?

SPEAKER_00 35:18

I don't know. I was never there in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

So yeah, probably I don't know, reason. Hello. But yeah, I'm on all I'm online constantly. You'll find me online somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Oh, cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You are a delightful guest. Thank you for your perspective and for sharing about your novel, The Band. And yeah, thank you so much for the room. So fun. Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. And please leave a review. Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories. Let's lift each other up. Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable. I'll see you next week.