SPEAKER_00 0:00

I think people don't take their scene writing as seriously as they should. And literally every single scene needs to be the best scene in the book. Like that's what I would constantly do. Because if you have three scenes in a row that are kind of meh, people close your book and they're you're done. And so I wanted my book to grab readers by the throat and just yank them all the way to the end.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formerly repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach. At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories. The one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it. This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully. Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers. Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone. Welcome to Reddit Scared. I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hi, writer. Welcome to another episode of the Red It Scared Podcast. I'm your host, Stacy. Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Tim Growl about his upcoming novel, The Shithead. Tim joins me today to talk about his journey from, you know, struggling writer to finally learning the craft in a way that made sense to him and writing a book that he is wildly proud of. But before I give him a bio and bring him on the show, I wanted to say that after our chat, I had the opportunity to read an arc of the shithead, an advanced reader copy. And I finished his book in about a day. It blew me away. It is a shockingly honest portrayal of how pursuing the wrong things for the wrong reason hollows a person out to the point that they're unrecognizable. I found it to be both a cautionary tale about the dangerous power of self-deception to the point of delusion, but also about the healing power of self-compassion. Ultimately, to me, this book demonstrates what it costs to crawl back out of the muck and return to the land of the living. And that's everything. The shithead is available for pre-order right now. And my two cents, go read it. It is indeed life-changing. And I am in no way an affiliate, just a fan. So without further ado, here is Tim's bio, and then we'll jump into the interview. Tim Growl is the CEO of Storygrid, a university and publishing house dedicated to teaching and publishing complex stories. He is the author of the best-selling book marketing methodology and protocol, Your First Thousand Copies, and the Book Launch Blueprint. His memoir, Running Down a Dream, Awards and All Confession of the Trials and Tribulations of a Contemporary, Small Business Owner, Drew Accolades from Ryan Holiday, Barbara Cochran, Daniel H. Pink, Derek Silvers, and Stephen Pressfield, who described it as indispensable. The writing of his first novel, A Young Adult Science Fiction Coming of Age Action Story, The Threshing, was the subject of the first three years of the Story Grid podcast, a perennial chart topper on multiple podcast bestseller lists. So thank you so much for coming on the show today, Tim. Wonderful to see you and have you. I'm excited to talk about all of your books. Actually, you're very prolific.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

I'm working on it.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

On the nonfiction side, what do you got? Like four books, I think. And then on the fiction side, you've got The Thrushing, which that's your YA dystopian. Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

And then you have a new book coming out, which we're going to talk about today called The Shifthead.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

And that is uh contemporary.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yes. Yeah. It's based, I mean, technically it's based in 2015, but I don't think we're ever explicit about that. But yeah, it's contemporary.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Cool. All right. Well, would you please share a bit about your journey to becoming a writer? How did that start for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Well, it's one of those. I've always wanted to be a writer. I started playing around with it in my 20s and writing here and there and trying different things. I started taking, you know, online classes as I got into my 30s, started, you know, just trying different things. And so I did, I won NanoRimo a couple times. I I would write entire novels, and they were always just complete shit. And so I was kind of getting frustrated. And it was what I think a lot of writers do, where they pick it up, they try to take it seriously, they write for a while, they realize they're not kind of making any progress, or you get halfway through a novel and it just kind of peters out and you're not sure what to do, and that gets really frustrating. So in 2015, I moved to Nashville, and my business for the first time kind of reached a nice copacetic place where I knew where my money was coming from in the near future. And so I really decided to take this writing thing seriously. And previous to this, about six months before this or something, I had bought a copy of this book called The Story Grid. And at this point, I'd read all the books that were out. You know, I'd read Story and Save the Cat and On Writing and Bird by Bird and like all these different craft books. And then I read The Story Grid and was just blown away. And like, this is what I've been looking for. This guy actually understands story in a way that he can replicate. And so I had been kind of following Sean for a little bit, the author, because he was the editor and business partner of Steven Pressfield, who wrote The War of Art and Turning Pro and lots of other great books. And so I just did what I do, which is I just emailed Sean and was like, hey, can I have a phone call? And he said yes, and we get on a call. And by the end of that call, we had agreed to start a podcast together where I would ask him all my idiot beginner bad writing questions, and he would help me learn how to write. And so over the course of doing the podcast, so I learned how to write in public. So I would write something, turn it into Sean, and then he would rip it apart. And we did it all live on the podcast. So we had a rule for years where we weren't allowed to talk about my writing unless we were recording the podcast. And so what came out of that was the book Running Down a Dream, which is a memoir, and then the book The Threshing, which was my young adult dystopian novel. But I still hadn't really wrapped my head around what it took to write. Sean on both of those did extensive editing and line editing, just getting them to the where they needed to be. And I'm really proud of Running Down a Dream, but the Threshing is fine, but it's not great. And I, you know, I really wanted to write something that was great. And so I started working on my next draft of a novel, and Sean read it and basically threw it out and told me to try again, gave me a bunch of feedback on it. So I wrote a whole nother draft and turned it in. And then he sat me down and looked at me across the table and said, Tim, you don't know how to write a fucking sentence, and uh we got to figure out how to teach you. So we started down this path of teaching me how to write. And we started with like what makes a great sentence. And it was really, really rough. I would work on one scene at a time, and most of the time it took 13, 14, 15 drafts of the scene before Sean would approve it and let me work on another scene. And these are just random scenes, these are not a book. And so for two years, I basically went into a hole and just worked on my scene work. And out of that came all kinds of amazing training that we do at Story Grid now. But for me, it was pretty brutal because they he didn't know how to train it yet. He knew it intuitively, but he hadn't developed the actual like how you would train somebody. And so it was just a bunch of trial and error. But then when I had the idea for the shithead, which, you know, is a whole nother thing, I was actually able to sit down and write it. And the draft that I produced, so Sean, all Sean, you know, not all not all he's done, but 98% of what he's done over the years has been to shit on my writing and tell me it's not good enough and tell me to go try again. And when I turned he had not read any of the drafts of the shithead, and when I gave him the draft back in November, he called me, which is also rare for him, and he said, Not only is this the best thing you've ever written, he said, This is one of the best things I've ever read. And so that moment alone was like worth I hadn't even shown it to anybody else yet, and that moment alone was worth like all of the heartache for the last eight years or whatever it'd been. And so he did a round of edits on it, and we're now done. It's coming out September 19th. We're sending arcs out to people, and it's a truly great book, and I'm so proud of it, and I'm just so happy to be sharing it with people now, and I can't wait for it to come out.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Wow, what a journey! I mean, and talk about rough learning to be a writer in public, being the ultimate guinea pig for listeners. I believe the Story Grid podcast is still up, right? Oh, yeah. You can go back and listen. And I remember years ago listening to those first episodes of listening to you read your first scene to him and him giving you critique. And I was going, oh yeah. That is a brave soul. That is a brave man, right there. So my hat is completely off to you. But what I love about your story is that it's just one of doggedness. This is what you wanted. And you are willing to go to the mat again and again and again and again to make it better. And that's what we have to do as writers. It doesn't matter where we start from, right? What matters is the steps that we are willing to take to get there. So, and here you are sitting with this new book that's gonna come out, and it's the thing that you are most proud of. That's an incredible story. And I think a lot of people are gonna draw inspiration from that. So, thank you for sharing all of that. We're gonna dig into more about the book that's coming out, but before we get there, I wanted to ask you uh a bit more about your fiction writing process. And your first book was uh dystopian, and now this is a contemporary. So, what draws you to write in those? And is there any theme that connects for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

I don't think I've written long enough to figure out what my theme is over the arc of my work because the arc of the fiction is not very long right now. The dystopian young adult was really just like I like those kind of books. I like dystopian books, and it was just I've I honestly I'd have to go back and listen to the podcast to remember where that idea came from. The shithead was completely different. I did some very intensive EMDR therapy back in 2020 and had some really strange experiences and totally changed my life. I marked my life as pre and post doing that kind of therapy. And so two summers ago, I started writing down some of what had happened in EMDR therapy, but it was just these kind of standalone things, just almost so I wouldn't forget them and I could share them with like my kids or something in the future, more for just posterity. And then, like, literally driving into work one morning, I just had one of those muse moments people talk about where like it just like it just felt like it came from the gods of like, here's your story, here's what you have to write. And I mean, I was a mess, I was like crying, I was like, and and at this point I wasn't allowed to write anything longer than a scene. That was the rule. So I had to call Sean and ask permission to like try to write this story. And so, and honestly, it's a r right now is a really weird place to be at because I feel like creatively like a wash rag that's been wrung out. Like I don't have anything left. So I don't know what my next writing project is. I'm working on some, you know, I continue to work on my writing, my scene work. I think that's where most writers should spend the vast majority of their time, is their scene work. I'm helping a friend with a nonfiction project. I might end up ghostwriting that. But really, I'm just kind of sitting around waiting for what's next. I had an idea for a book, I was kind of trying to force it, and Sean's like, that's not your next book. And I'm like, I know, I just want something to work on. And so it's a really weird place to be. But for that, the book is is like it's how I see the world. It's it's probably the most fundamental thing that I believe about the world is in that book. And now that's it.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

You mean about the shithead?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, the shithead. It's a story, it's a novel, but it's like I said something about the way I think the world works in that book that I think is very important and is one of my core beliefs. And so I've kind of like, well, I said it. What else do I have to say? You know? So I'm not sure what's next. So I don't think I've been doing it long enough. May ask me in 20 years, I might have an idea of what my why I do what I do, but I wrote the shithead and I'm really proud of it. And, you know, for now I'm just trying to like be happy that that happened because I'm really proud of it. And a lot of writers don't even get to that point.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

You know, I have read You're Running Down the Dream, loved the book, and I loved it in audio, and you narrated it. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

So what came through in that book for me was, you know, enemy number one is here. It is us, it's what's upstairs. And figuring out how to kind of develop a sense of awareness of what it is that we're doing. That that's what really pulled through for me. And then I was looking at the jacket cover for the shithead, and it sounds like it's a journey of of self-discovery.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

So I was having a discussion with a couple writers recently about the difference between true and realistic. You know, running down a dream is a true story in a in the sense that it actually happened. But then the shithead is the capital T truth, right? Which is a different type of truth. You know, so the way I say this is like two plus two is four is true. The way I feel about my kids is capital T truth. And capital T truth you can't put into words, right? Like I can't capture in words how I actually feel about my kids. And this is where metaphors come in, right? We start saying, well, it feels like this, and but that's not that doesn't really capture it any anyway. And so running down a dream is a is an actual real story that happened, you know. And then I feel like the shithead is the true story that Running Down a Dream was based on. So it's it's fiction, and there's some fantasy in it too. But what I'm try what I was trying to say in Running Down a Dream, I felt like I actually said in the shithead.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

I love it. Tell us more about the shithead in the Jacket copy. It says it's Faust meets Fleischmann in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, so a buddy of mine in the publishing world was asking me about my book, and and I said, Look, man, I'm gonna say the thing that if somebody said it to me, because I've been publishing, if somebody said this to me, I would roll my eyes immediately, but I'm gonna say it anyway. There's just nothing like it on the market. So the way I've been talking about it is it's about a guy whose life is falling apart and he's trying to find meaning in a meaningless world. And I think to a certain extent, that's what we're all trying to do is look out into the world that in a lot of ways tells us that everything is meaningless in the long run, and then we try to find something meaningful to spend our life doing. And I think so many of us are looking for something external to give us that meaning. And my belief is that it all has to come from internal, and but there's some really dark shit on the internal for most of us. Yeah. And so it's confronting that and how you go about confronting that that is the most important, but it's also where all the true stuff is. So it's, I mean, on the surface, it's about a guy who has made a lot of mistakes and continues to make some really bad mistakes, and it's coming to the point where he's going to lose everything that's important to him if he doesn't figure out what's going on. But to figure out what's going on isn't just about fixing what he's broken externally, because, you know, I heard a guy say one time, like, if you try to fix a problem you don't understand, you'll create a problem you don't know how to fix. And that's what most of us are doing with our life is we're trying to fix some problem, but we don't actually understand the problem. So we just keep making it worse. And that's what I spent most of my life doing too. And so it's about a guy that keeps doing that until he has to confront what he's actually trying to avoid. Um, and it's all internal stuff.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Yeah. And it it rings true with this idea that you know, you can't fix anything until the the first thing you gotta do is get honest with yourself. And sometimes you don't know how to do that. You gotta learn how to get honest with yourself, and that can be a very humbling experience.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Well, it's humbling and it's terrifying because most of the time, so like in my process, like I basically lost my mind for like a week, and my wife had to take my kids and go stay with my parents because I wasn't safe to be around because I couldn't keep track of what was real. So it's like I was just talking to a friend of mine last week who's just starting to actually like I've known him for years, and I'm like, at some point he's gonna break, and sure enough, he's starting to break. And so he just started going to therapy, and I just warned him, I'm like, man, this shit's dangerous. Like you you start rewriting contracts with everybody in your life about how your relationships work, you start having to decide what's actually important to you, and if you do it right, you risk everything. And but that's dangerous. And so, you know, it's it's a dangerous path, but I think that it's one worth doing. And again, that's what I tried to put in the book is is show show what it takes to risk everything and what you get as a result.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that and for your vulnerability and your openness. And I'm looking forward to reading the book and be and feeling that. And from a person who uh has spent the last decade or more in recovery, I do know exactly what you mean by facing the dark and how scary and that can be. And for me, one of the keys has been to not do it alone.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

You can't. I couldn't anyway, and I still can't. So for anybody out there listening who's experiencing something of that nature where you're facing, you know, the dark past, it's creeping up, it's gonna bite you in the ass. Please reach out for help. Don't hesitate. We don't need to uh talk about how delicate and how delicate mental health can be. Reach out for help, look for the resources that you need and make sure that you've you get the help that you need. Okay. We're gonna transition here and go a little less deep. So tell us what it's like for you to go from idea to polished draft. What's that process like for you?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, so I'm the CEO of Story Grid. And so we have a very methodical way of doing basically every part of writing. So we have this thing called the narrative path, which is that what that's what it does. It takes your idea and builds an actual working plan for a book. It's way more robust than like plotting. And so it took this idea for a book. It's literally a list of like 97 questions. We keep refining it, but it figures out who your characters are, what you're trying to say with the book, what needs to happen, how to weave all the plots together, how to weave all the genres together that are showing up in the book. And it comes up with this plan. And then once we have the plan for the book, we pitch the plan. So the way I did this is I got on the phone with Sean and I just told him the story for for like 20 minutes, right? And I was just like, I just walked him through the story and told him the story as if I was telling a friend over coffee. He made like one tweak, but otherwise said it was ready to write. And then I just sat down and started writing. And again, you know, I think I think probably the biggest misconception I used to have about writing, I don't anymore, that I wish more writers would understand, is like it's not it's not so much about your big overarching story. It's about writing this scene and making this scene the best it can possibly be. So because we had the plan set for the book and I knew the arc of the book, we get it down to like the 20 big moments in the book, is basically what we get it down to. What that allowed me to do is like each day, I'm like, all right, what's the next scene? And then I would just focus on making that the best scene it could possibly be. And sometimes I wrote a whole scene in a setting. Most of the time it was over a couple days. I piece it together. So like I very rarely will just like linearly write a scene. Most of the time I get started and then I back up, I rewrite the beginning, add another piece, and then write a little bit further, then back up and add another piece, and then I'll jump ahead and add that. And I tend to piece the scenes together than actually sit down and just bang out a scene. But because I'm I'm like figuring out, like I have generally an idea of like where the scene starts, the inciting incident of the scene. I've generally, because I know the structure of the whole book, I know where the scene needs to go. And what I try to do is just Make that as good as possible to bridge between where it starts and where it ends. And it leaves it leaves a lot of room for like those muse moments where like you're in the middle of like trying to think through and you're like, oh my God, I got it. And that's what's also great is because we had such a strong structure for the book and understanding of everything that had to go in it, it almost felt like I was sitting next to this box of all this shit that had to end up in the book at some point. Right. So then whenever I would kind of be writing a scene and I'd get a little stuck, it was like I would just rummage through the box and be like, oh, this is a good place to put this thing because it's got to go in at some point, you know? And then I would drop that in and start, and that would like add to the scene. And so I just I just write that scene, I set the scene to the side, and then I think about okay, what's the next scene? And then I would think through like, okay, this is where it's got to go. And I sit down and I just work on that scene until it's done. Again, usually like one to three days per scene. And then I would check in with the overarching plan about about once a week. Be like, all right, this is how far I've come. And I would talk through it with somebody of like, you know, this is where it needs to go. Okay, yeah, let me think. Okay, what are the next few scenes I need to write? And we kind of map those out. And then that was the next week. I'm just like, get as far down that path as possible. But writing the book took 12 weeks. Planning the book, doing the narrative path took 13. It took longer. But then once I, but I never once, this was the first time of writing anything, I didn't have a single moment where I was like, oh my God, the book's not gonna work, or the book's going in the wrong direction, or you know, whatever, whatever. It's just like I just wrote the book. Like it was just, I know what the book was. I had really wonderful moments of insights where I'm like, oh my God, if I do this here, then that ties back to this thing. So like it still left room for really cool muse moments, is what I call them, and think of them as. But but mostly it was like I knew the story worked, I knew what I was trying to say, and I just did my absolute best to write each scene and make them each scene the best it could possibly be. Because, you know, if it gets boring, people close the book. So I tried to just like keep the narrative drive super high, keep it super interesting, and just grab people by the throat right at the beginning. Because I'm also, I wasn't writing a thriller. There's no guns or bullets or chase scenes or sex scenes, there's none of that in it. And yet I had to keep the narrative drive super high.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

And so Yeah, the internal stakes have to be really high.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Well, yeah, the internal, we I kind of what we have come to understand is that if you know the internal stakes in your head as the writer, and then you just make the external stakes as high as possible and keep pushing those and pushing those and pushing those, the internal automatically ends up on the page. It's kind of weird. So, what we super focus on is make it interesting to read first. That's all we focus on. And what we find is when writers do that, if they understand the internal, like they have it, they have a deep understanding of it, but they just focus on making it interesting to read, all of that internal shit automatically gets in there. So we would go back on the second draft and kind of like tweak some stuff to like up it a little bit. But you know, I, you know, I could talk for I do talk for hours and hours on this stuff, but it's like that's that's the process is like get the story set, have a clear understanding of where it's going, have the big moments set in the story, and then just start writing each individual scene and making like I think people don't take their scene writing as seriously as they should. And literally every single scene needs to be the best scene in the book. Like, that's what I would constantly do. Because if you have three scenes in a row that are kind of meh, people close your book and they're you're done. And so I wanted my book to grab readers by the throat and just yank them all the way to the end. And I think I accomplished that again without kind of your normal, like, you know, there's no horror, there's no action, you know, there's none of that stuff. There's a little bit of horror. But yeah, that's the process.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Did this process change quite a bit for you between your first fiction novel and the shit hen? Or is it or did you use the same process?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Oh no, it's completely different. So when I wrote the the the threshing, we didn't have the narrative path yet. I hadn't done all of that. I did two years of only writing scenes, only doing scene work, not writing anything longer. I hadn't done all of that. So, and the threshing was written live on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Oh, that's right. That was the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

So I'd write a scene, turn it into Sean. He'd give me feedback. Once he felt like it was good enough, I could go on to the next scene. Where this, Sean didn't read this until after the second draft. So it was basically done. And like the person I was working with wanted me to keep refining it. I thought it was good enough. And so I was like, I'm fucking, I'm just gonna show it to Sean. And then that's when Sean was like, he called me and said it was great. And so this was completely different. But when my next book comes along, I will do it this way: the narrative path first, pitch the story, get clarity on the story, and then sit down and just make the the first scene the best scene in the book, then the second scene the best scene in the book, all the way to the end. And that was that's the way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Right on. Well, a big part of this podcast is dedicated to telling the truth, why writing can be so hard, exposing unhelpful internal narratives that many writers face when they craft their stories, because we aim to normalize and identify these things, help writers work through droughts so they can keep writing, growing confidence, which results in more books in the world. So when you look back on your own writing life, what did self-doubt look like for you? And what does it look like for you now that you've accumulated all this writing know-how?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

So I do jujitsu, and I was listening to this like famous jujitsu coach, and somebody asked him, How do you give your students confidence? He goes, You can't give people confidence. Confidence comes from consistently doing well at something. He's like, So if they come in every day and they train hard and they're kicking everybody asses on the mat, when it comes time to do a tournament, they have confidence because they successfully do it every single day. I had a lot of self-doubt when I started writing because I sucked, so I should have self-doubt. But here's the thing that I I think is so weird about this whole writing thing, is like people always try to pump you up when you're started, and it's like no, you suck, but that doesn't mean you'll always suck, you just suck right now. But you can get better if you actually break it apart, look at the skills, learn how to do the skills. Over time, you get better. When I look at my writing now, there honestly, there's not a lot of self-doubt. Like my self-doubt comes from looking for my next thing to say because I know now when I find it, I'll be able to say it. See, this is the thing, is like everybody listening has something they want to say, but they don't have the skills to say it yet. Just like a painter, like if I can see a beautiful painting in my head, I could not get it on the page. It would look like a kindergartner did it because I don't have the skills to paint. Like I don't have the skill to get what's in my head onto the canvas. That's where most writers are, is they have something worth saying, they don't have the skills to do it. I now have the skills to do it. So when I have something to say, I can get it down on the paper. So I don't really have the self-doubt anymore. And it's like, sure, every once in a while I'll run into something that I don't know what to do with. Well, I can go build the skills to deal with that then. So I don't think I'm like the best writer. I hope this is the were the second worst thing I've ever written, right? Novel-wise. And then my next one will be better than this one. So it's like I have a lot to learn, but the idea that I can't learn it, like when I face a challenge, I can't learn it. Like I know that's not true because of all the work I've already done. My confidence comes from what I've already done. What I'm trying to tell people now is like there is a more efficient way to learn the skill of writing than churning out three million words first, right? There just is. And I just see it work all the time for writers, so I just know it's true. So it's like, and again, I want to go back. Like, I did all that EMDR work, which freed up my voice when I had the idea for the book, I had the skills to get it down.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah. So what is your wish for your fellow writers?

SPEAKER_00 30:45

I wish they would work on skill first. This is my soapbox. If there is, I have lots of soap boxes. This is probably my bigger biggest one. Again, looking back at myself, if I had known that there was like a fundamental set of skills that I could learn that would allow me to build it up faster. Again, I learned to play the guitar when I was in high school. And I first by learning chords, then learning how to strum a guitar, then learning how to play my scales, and then that freed me up to play the things I wanted to play. I wish I had known that first. And so I just that's what I focus on is like, I wish writers like knew the skills, could learn the skills, build those up, and understand there's an actual methodical way that you can learn the skills. So when you have something to say, you can actually say it.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Can listeners find you?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

I am at storygrid.com. Probably the best place to follow me is the our YouTube channel. So just stick StoryGrid into YouTube. You'll find us. Buy my book, The Shithead. It's on pre-order on Amazon right now. And then, yeah, the podcast is there. We don't add new episodes, but all the episodes are still there. Those are probably the best places to find me.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, for your honesty, for your vulnerability, for telling it like it is and how you see it. And I wish you all the best with the book that's coming out, The Shithead, in September of 2024. Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. And please leave a review. Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories. Let's lift each other up. Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable. I'll see you next week.