SPEAKER_00 0:00

The self-edits so hard. Like, let's just put it out there. It can be made easier and more streamlined, but it's going to be hard. There's parts that are going to be fun because you'll see a paragraph or a scene or whatever it is that you're like, this is cool. I can't believe I wrote it. That will happen, but I'd say the majority is like, oh, this feels like a mess. And what am I going to do? And so all the feelings are valid. And I think that's really important to note. It's also important to note that it's probably going to take longer than you think. And that's normal too. It doesn't mean something's wrong with you or your book.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser. A formally repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach. At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories. The one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it. This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully. Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers. Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone. Welcome to Write It Scared. I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hi writer. Welcome back to another episode of the Write It Scared Podcast. I'm your host, Stacey, and I'm very excited to bring this episode to you today. We're going to talk about how to self-edit your manuscript. Summer is winding down, and when this episode releases, it should be about mid-August. And I know a lot of writers who take the summer off of their writing because they're resting and they're planning to dive back into their edits in the fall. So I got together with Savannah Gilbo, who is a book coach and developmental editor that I greatly admire to break down the process of self-editing. And I'm so pleased to bring Savannah onto the show. I'm going to give her an introduction here in a moment, but first I wanted to let you know that in the show notes are several resources from both Savannah and I to help you work through the phases of the self-editing process. Savannah has a revision checklist and I have a revision workbook and checklist guide as well. So please make sure you check out the resources in the show notes. Savannah is a certified developmental editor and book coach who helps fiction authors write, edit, and publish stories that work. She is also the host of the top-rated fiction writing made easy podcast, which you should definitely listen to, where she delivers weekly episodes full of simple, actionable, and step-by-step strategies that you can implement into your writing right away. So let's jump into the interview and talk all about the self-edit and revision. Hi, Savannah. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I gave you a bit of a bio, but would you please tell our listeners just a bit more about your journey to becoming a developmental editor and a book coach?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Sure. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here. Like Stacey said, I'm a developmental editor and a book coach, which is really just a fancy way of saying I help people write, edit, and publish stories that work and that they're proud of. So the main way I do that is through my podcast, Fiction Writing Made Easy. I have a course called Notes to Novel. And yeah, working with, I don't work as with as many one-on-one writers as I used to anymore, but that's just because I'm so focused on my course and and yeah, that's what I do in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Awesome. Yeah, I've admired you for years. I've been a long time, long time listener, first time caller of the fiction writing made easy podcast. So if you're a new listener or new to writing podcasts, please go check it out. It is a top-rated writing podcast, incredibly helpful, applicable to really any stage of the writing game. You know, you could be brand new or you could be wanting to go a little deeper. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

So the goal too to make it quick and actionable. And I hear a lot of people saying, I listened to the one thing on a genre or scene writing, and then I came back a year later. And it, you know, you always take something new, just like as we read our favorite books and take something new. So right. Same with craft books too. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

When you reread those craft books, you're like, oh, I really I didn't get that last year. Yeah. Now I get it. So how did you get here? How did you get to the spot where you're a developmental editor and a book coach?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah. So I uh worked in the surf industry for a long time. Like spent 15 years in the surf industry, and I'm not meant for a corporate job. So I slowly realized that over time and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to work for myself, but I didn't know what that would look like. And it was one of those weeks where I was just like, I hate my job. What am I gonna do? That I came across an editor certification program and went down that path thinking that I want to write books and this is gonna help me write better books. So it was a selfish endeavor. But then realizing I could make money from doing that, I was like, this is the thing I want to do. So that's long story short, how I got here. And I I love it.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

I have a kind of similar, came from a completely different background and also wanted to write my own books and with trying to just become a better writer. And then it was like, oh, I really like this. And I really like helping people bring their stories into the light. Yeah. Well, a big part of this podcast is helping writers find and learn the tools that they need to craft and publish stories that they're proud of. And so today we are going to talk about revision and specifically how a writer can confidently approach the first step in the process, which is the self-edit, which is where you take your messy first draft and you fix it.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah. And the self-edit's so hard. Like, let's just put it out there. It can be made easier and more streamlined, but it's going to be hard. There's parts that are going to be fun because you'll see a paragraph or a scene or whatever it is that you're like, this is cool. I can't believe I wrote it. That will happen, but I'd say the majority is like, oh, this feels like a mess. And what am I gonna do? And so all the feelings are valid. And I think that's really important to note. It's also important to note that it's probably gonna take longer than you think. And that's normal too. It doesn't mean something's wrong with you or your book. It just, it's a process. It takes multiple passes and it's can be hard.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah. And and I will say that you do get more efficient at it the more time you're in this, the longer you're in the writing game, the more books that you have under your belt, you you do get more efficient. And speaking for myself, I know I have come to enjoy revision. I used to just love to draft because it was there was freedom and I could play and whatever. But now I really, really enjoy revision because I understand the process and I've seen it makes it so much stronger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

So and on that note, I've seen many writers convert from I'm scared of this, I hate it, to revisions are the favorite part of my process. Yeah. So also if that's happening to listeners, totally normal. It's kind of, in my opinion, where I would want to get to, right? Where you're loving the revision process as much as you like the writing process. So yeah, I love that you're like that too.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

And it is a step that you cannot skip. Yeah. Unless you are one of those 1% writers out there who edits as they go and creates a cohesive book by the end of it, you cannot skip the self-edit. Even if you are that kind of writer, you still can't skip the self-edit. So we're gonna break down like the different phrases. So, number one, why can't you skip it? What do you have to say to that? Why can't you skip a self-edit?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Well, I mean, in theory, you can do whatever you want, right? So if you don't care about what kind of book you're producing, or if you don't want others to read it and enjoy it, then sure, do whatever you want. Uh, but we don't want to skip it because we want the vision that's in your head to match what you produce on paper. And our first drafts don't, they're not gonna be that, you know. So I think part of it for the writers I work with anyway, it's unwinding that expectation that I'm going to produce something that matches what's in my head. Not always, right? So revisions really help you do that. And they help you deliver on the reader's expectation. They help you highlight your theme more and, you know, just make everything better. So really important.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

So, with that, so the self-edit is the step that you take before you decide to do really anything else with it, before you decide to go off to a developmental editor or go look at the different types of copy editing or available, or maybe query or whatever it is that you're gonna do with it. So the self-edit is the first step. And so, what do you think is the a great mindset for writers to approach the self-edit? We kind of touched on that a little bit. It's gonna take longer than you think it's gonna take. That's okay. All feelings are warranted. Yeah. I would add that you do it in layers. It's not like you start at the beginning and you work your way to the end. Yeah. It's it's done in segments and in layers. And I think it's really important to remember to congratulate yourself. Celebrate like every little phase that you make it through, right? And we'll break those phases down uh for listeners here in just a second. But celebrate and take a little rest. Definitely. You don't have to grind at this. I mean, you can, and I've done it that way, but it hurts.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah, it hurts. And yeah, I think this is why it takes longer than we expect, too, because some writers they sit down with their first draft and they're like, I'm gonna do one pass and then I'm gonna send it to an editor or I'm gonna get it copy edited. And then they, you know, let's say they go through this process and they're all all the way at the copy editor. And the copy editor is like, this story doesn't really read right, you know, and then they have to kind of go back and start over. So it's important to go into it with that mindset that there are multiple passes you'll need to do. It probably will take longer than you think if you're brand new to all of this. And also if you find yourself at a point where you're like, I know I'm supposed to self-edit before enlisting help, but you can't because of whatever reason, like it's your first time, you're overwhelmed, or it's just really hard, you can enlist help. Like that's okay too. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

And a book coach or a developmental editor at that stage in the game might be life-changing, honestly. It was for me. Yeah. Um, so let's break down. I know that you have a really cool system. I have a very, very similar system, but talking about these phases of the self-edit. So, where do you have writers start?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yeah. So the well, I kind of want to back up to phase zero because I think it's important to take a break. That is such a good thing. Yeah. So I was gonna ask you, how do you feel about that? But I think we're on the same page. Like you don't want to just normally unless you're, you know, on a deadline or unless you're just like the type of person this works for, but you don't usually want to dive right into revisions because space and that and getting that objectivity or that time away from your story is critical to making the phases work as they should.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

100%. Actually, I just had a writer finish their first draft day before yesterday, and we were talking about how long they should wait. And it's different for everybody, but I I say, you know, give yourself as much time as you can stand. My recommendation was to take the summer off from the novel. And try to think of it about it this way. Your book, it's this is probably gonna sound a little woo, but your book is an entity. It has energy and it's been working right along with you this whole time. It needs rest too. Right. And so if you let it rest and you take a rest, then what that will do is give you perspective so that you can come back with objectivity. Cause that's really what you need to put your editor's hat on.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. And that's what like I find too that when writers don't take breaks, they panic, they get overwhelmed, they reach out to a developmental editor. And then it's like, you know, I kind of know what the editor's telling me to do. I know that intrinsically. And it's like the reason you couldn't execute it is because you didn't take that break. You didn't get that objective set of eyes, and then your editor did. So, you know, uh totally agree. It's just take a break. I always recommend like at least four weeks, but I've had writers who they're like, I can't. So I'm like, okay, give it at least then a week, you know, sometime, some time away is is key.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah. And if that's not working for you, it's okay. You can stop and you can re-change your contract and extend that break for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah. The other thing too is it's not like just about the objectivity, even though that's a huge thing. It's also about recharging your batteries and refilling your creative well because I've had this happen to me. I've seen it happen to the writers I work with. They think they're geared up and ready to go. And then two weeks in they're like, I hate my story. I feel tired of everything. I should have taken that break. So kind of like learn from the people that have gone before you if you're not a fan of taking a break and just say, I'm gonna trust that they know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

I love that. That is fantastic. Okay. So, first phase of the self-edit. How what do you what do you recommend and how do you take writers through it?

SPEAKER_00 12:50

So, to me, this is like that big picture. It is the developmental edit. It's looking at your story and saying, it like, do I have the ingredients I need to make what's on the page match my head? So is the plot working the way that I want it to? Are the characters, do they have a nice arc? Do they have motivations and backstories and all these things? Does it start in the right place and end in the right place? Is there, you know, just these big picture elements? Am I using too many point of view characters, not enough point of view characters? This is where I find a lot of people realize I don't know if I have a good enough antagonist, right? It's a key part of a story. So that you're looking for these really big things. And this is the section that's going to take you the longest because all these big things work together. So if you find, let's say, your character's backstory isn't totally developed, that's a big deal for many reasons. One, your arc, your character's arc of change might not be working, probably because there's not enough backstory. The plot won't challenge that wound or that inner obstacle that they that is specific to them. You know, so you'll need to change certain things once you find out kind of where the holes are and you beef them up. Other things are gonna need to change. It's like a row of dominoes.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah. It can be very overwhelming. And I think one of the tools that I use with writers to help them get that big picture or that 30,000 foot view, as I like to call it, not my term, stole it from somebody else, is to do an as-is outline. Yes. So you bring you, you know, you you first thing is read, which not I think both of us have our writers do, but neither of us said, is we have them read the draft, right? Read it as is and try to take away from that just the experience of the story. Does it make sense? Does it work? And you know, and then if you're a note taker, take some notes, but don't change anything. Yes. Because you will find more things that need to be changed. So don't go nut. Yeah, don't don't change anything. Just read it, assess it for the experience of the story and note, okay, what what needs what needs to ship, what needs to change. And I have my writers read it a second time. So the first time, like I make them shove it over to a PDF that they can't touch and they read it. And they can take notes, but I specifically want them to take notes on what they like. Yeah. What do they like about it? And then what are the things that just like is scratching at their brain, like, oh my gosh, this is so hideous. Write those things down. Yeah. And then I have them reread it again. Yep. And from that second reread, we do our as is outline. So that's where we write down what is happening, how does it move the story forward in each scene? In each and and does it make sense?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah. And so it's we could probably go on a tangent about this for another hour, but it's I call it a reverse outline. I know that's not a term I'm made up either. There's there's terms in the industry, as is, reverse outline, whatever. It's basically a reflection of what your story is in an outline form, and you can pressure test it a lot easier than going into your 80,000 words, right? So you might find, like I see this happen too sometimes where it's like on the scene level, things kind of work. So there's like a goal, the character's doing something, there's a choice in the scene, whatever. But then when you zoom out, you're like, okay, the beginning of my story reads like a romance and the end reads like a crime story. Like, how did this happen? So to recap, step zero, take a break. Step one, read through it, create your scene list or your reverse outline, your as is outline. And then you're looking for these big picture issues that this is the same stuff a developmental editor would look, but you're the first line of defense. So you're like, okay, you know, you're gonna find much more than you think, too. Like sometimes writers are like, how will I know? And I'm like, you'll know.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

You'll know. Yeah. Yeah, you you will, you will. Because it comes down to is it logical and does it does it have forward momentum? And is the story get grow growing in tension and suspense? And that is true regardless of the genre that you're writing in. Okay, cool. So that's the big picture. Uh and Savannah, I think you have a really good resource too for writers, um, like a checklist, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

So, yes, I have a editing checklist that you can download if you go to savanna gilbo.com forward slash editing dash checklist. And I'm sure Stacy will throw that in the show notes. Um hundred percent. We'll definitely throw that in the show notes. Yeah, so that'll that'll walk you through these phases we're talking about, but also this, because people ask me, like, when do I need beta readers? When do I need developmental editors? And and like Stacy and I said earlier, any time that you feel stuck or you're like, let's say you go through this, you've read your draft, you've compiled your as is outline, you've identified holes, and you're like, okay, I don't know what to do with this. That's a great time to get some outside feedback or to get a coach. I know some writers even have trouble. They're like, I read it and I know certain things don't work. I don't know what those certain things are. I just know I don't feel good reading this part. You know, so that can be where you use beta readers and, you know, some people get nervous about that too because they're like, but my story is totally not perfect. That's kind of what we're all here for in the, you know, beta reader editing profession. So don't be afraid to get help at this stage if you need it.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah. Excellent advice. Okay. So we kind of recapped like the first phase is like this big picture, overarching story assessment involving our characters, you know, their arcs, the logic of the plots, the consistency and the character's agency. Are they moving forward? Are they driving things forward? So then once you're done, and and like Savannah said, you may have to do several passes through this structural edit. It's definitely not a one and done thing. So you might be moving scenes around here. You may be creating a whole new subplot. You might be adding in or subtracting or merging characters at this point. So it feels like a lot and it can feel pretty messy.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

That's normal. It's very normal, and I think it's a good thing because that means you're get you've gained that clarity on what you want your story to be. And now you're saying I've kind of done this vomit draft and there's stuff on the page, and you know, at least now I know what I want. It's just now the hard work of making it that. So Right. This is why they say that the book is the book is made in revision.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

It's not made in drafting.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Exactly. And it's also why I recommend people, I don't want to say rush through the first draft, but it's like, don't don't worry about it being perfect. Don't put it off until you feel like you're more quote unquote ready because it it matters, but it really doesn't matter because this phase of the revision process is where you're really making your story a story. So I like to say just get it done as soon as you can and you'll have more to work with. I love that. Yeah. Okay. Should we talk about the second? Second level. So then, yeah. So you've done the big picture stuff. You have made changes probably in your draft, or at least on like a new version of an outline. So sometimes um writers aren't ready to quite go in their draft and make changes yet. So they'll create like they have their as is outline and then a brand new outline where they're tracking the new developments. So then what you'll want to do is you is dive a layer deeper. So you want to go into each of your scenes and you're pretty much asking a lot of the big picture questions still. So you're like, does this scene serve the plot? Is can I do more in this scene than, you know, just establish a piece of my world building? Is there enough conflict and tension in each of these scenes? Is there an arc of change? Is that change appropriate, right? Because I'll see writers where they're like, well, in this scene, there is an arc of change. And I'm like, yeah, but your character went from being hungry to not hungry or vice versa. Like that's unless you're writing something about food, that's not that impactful, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Or my character went from damsel in distress to warrior. Right. And you're kind of like, what the hell? Any shift? There wasn't like any, we didn't have any steps to get right.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

This is you, you know, if you haven't identified that already at the big picture level, you'll identify it in this scene pass where it's like, and this is true for I see this in romance arcs where it's this kind of what you said, where it's like all of a sudden they're they've gone from um enemies to friends in like one scene, and you're like, might be too quick, right? So if you haven't identified that stuff in the big picture, you will get it here. But assuming that you get most of it in the big picture phase, you're going a layer deeper. So you're looking at the scenes. Are they balanced? Are they like an appropriate word count? Is everything in there that needs to be in there? Is there info dumping, head hopping? Like you're looking for all these things at the scene level. And some of these discoveries might make you go back to phase one and go back to revising more story level stuff. That's also normal. But once you go through this phase, you should, you know, however many times you need to go through it, you should feel confident by the end of this phase that my big picture story works and each of my scenes are doing the heavy lifting they should be doing and they're moving the story forward and they work.

unknown 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yes. And I I have writers do the same similar thing. Oftentimes they're creating a new outline. You know, they're taking what they have, they're merging it with what they need to create a very solid scene list. Yeah. And then they go into their draft and they start actually moving things around. And one, you know, and and there might be big pieces where there's holes where new scenes have to be drafted. Yeah. Um, or where scenes have to be cut and put over in a cuts file. Cuts files are awesome, by the way. If nobody's ever heard of that, it's just a file where you put all the stuff that you don't think you need in your novel, but it's not really gone. It's over there in the cuts file. So you didn't delete anything. It's safe. It's safe over there. Okay, so pretty much you're gonna be set with your story and happy with the way the events, the plot events roll out and the way that put pressure on your character and creates the overarching change of the story that you're looking for. And you're diving into each scene to make sure that it is working and moving forward. Moving forward. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

And I like to say you're confident, like as you can be. You've done the work that you know how to do. So if you haven't already paused and gotten some outside feedback, this is a spot where I would recommend pausing, no matter how you want to publish. You know, we all need that outside feedback. So you can use a beta reading service, critique partners, whatever you have, or a developmental editor, a coach. But basically at this point, you want to say, I've done the most I can on the story and I don't know what I don't know. So I need to find that out. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

And so I heard this rule. I don't know if it's a hard, fast rule, but I heard this idea a long time ago that works for me. Because when you're going through and you're working either in the structural edit part or you're in the scene edit part, you're gonna notice a little things, right? That needs to be tweaked. If it takes you three seconds or less, you can change it. Yeah. I like that rule too. Yeah. If it if it takes longer than that, leave it. Leave it alone. Because you don't need to be monkeying with tiny things when that entire scene might go away.

unknown 24:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Yeah. And so I don't know if listeners have noticed, but what we haven't said to pay attention to is spelling and grammar and word choice and pulling out your thesaurus. So we are not even concerned with that yet. Even if you're reading it and you're and you're in a scene and you're like, God, this sounds so basic. It sounds like, you know, so cheesy. We don't care at this stage. Because as long as the movement of the scene or the character or whatever it is that you're working on, as long as that matters, you just you can let it go for the next pass. So some of that you will catch here in this like scene level pass at, you know, but really all the stuff I feel like we love to sit in comes in the next two phases, which is where you're looking at your pages. So once you've done the scene, you zoom closer into each page. And then we're gonna zoom in again to like line by line. So yeah, just just to point that out, because I know I'm a perfectionist, recovering perfectionist, and there's a lot that I will happily sit in for a long time that doesn't serve me. Thame. One percent theme.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah. Okay. So after you've assessed your scene level and you've gone through all of your scenes, and again, this you might be going back and forth and you may even have to go back up into the structural level to make some changes. Then once you've got your scenes and you feel like they're turning, right? Meaning that they're engaging, that's they're moving the story forward, the passage of time is logical, as is the character's actions and emotion. Then it's time to drop into the next phase, which for you, how do you how do you break that up? I think you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, so this is like this is I the phase that I feel like this is what people think editing is. So it's we're looking for is everything on each of your pages necessary? Do you have repetitive words and sentences? Are you using way too many adverbs, like whatever your your poison is? Because we all have a different poison at this stage. Are you telling too much? Like, are you over-describing the world or whatever? Do you have pages of backstory or exposition that you just don't need and you could weave in differently? Do you have action that's or even sex scenes that are over choreographed, right? Where it's just like, okay, we get it. You know, you can look at things that like a passage of dialogue. Is it only doing one thing? Could it be doing more? Does it need to be so long? Do you have purple pros? Do you have too many dialogue tags? Or there's like the list is endless, right? So you're just kind of looking at, okay, assuming the scene works now in this container, is everything really doing double duty and pulling its weight? And if not, what can you do? You can also look at this is where like you can plant little setups. Like if you need to mention a key that comes into play later in chapter seven, you know, you can slot those in places to check for things like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

It's a definitely a place to think about, you know, how to plant foreshadowing a little more strategically. Also, this phase, if you want to call it the page phase, where you're assessing what's on the page, is a really good to read it out loud to yourself or or have some sort of tech read it back to you.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yep, I think so too. There's one called natural readers that I like a lot. They have they have AI voices, but they also have ones that sound like a human. Uh, but yeah, if you've never done this before, you'll be surprised how much you can just reading it out loud.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah. I actually just did it the other day with I was re I was using Word and I had just updated my Word, and they came out with a whole bunch of different voices. It was like some very sexy Australian. Yeah, you're like, I will take this and I'll kid. I love it. Yeah. So so reading it out loud, you're just gonna catch a lot. Also, another tip that I've learned is to change the font of your novel so uh that it's just different than what you've read it before, because you get kind of a snowblind. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

You can even go from Word to Scrivener or Scrivener to Google Doc, whatever, you know, to further help that. But yeah, so this in this phase, ideally, we're not going back and making too many big picture changes because this is where it gets really overwhelming. If you're like, I've I've gone through the two big passes already and now I've decided I need to add another subplot. That to me means you've gone through the other two phases too fast. And that's how are you going to manage all these different things you're trying to do at once? So that's why it's important to break things up. And like we've been saying, spend enough time in the structural and the scene edits, so the big picture edits and the scene edits until you are confident that it works in general.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Well said. So, and then kind of the last phase of your of your self-edit is going through for the grammar, right? The grammar and the spelling that's like the fine tooth comb up. Yes. And whether you really hit it hard or not, it kind of to me it kind of depends on what your plans are. Like, what do you want to do with this?

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Exactly. And I want to talk about that, but let me back up to where we just were in the like the page level edit. So at that stage, I like to think about if you need help, who do you go to? That could be a developmental editor. It could also be a line editor, depending on what that line editor offers. Because they can help you find that repetition and, you know, are you using your sentences as wisely as you can? And then into this sentence level edit where you're really looking at each sentence and you're looking for spelling and grammar, this could be a line editor or a copy editor, depending on the services they offer.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah. And some do some do both. And you really want to kind of suss that out, tease it out, and see. To me, line editing is kind of about enhancement. It's not so much about correction. And and it's subjective, depending on, you know, so that you want to make sure that if you're working with a line editor, they they understand the vision in your characters because you I always yeah, I've worked with some and they've tried to change like the voice and the style, and that doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, and that's I think subjective. It's subjective, and that's why it's important to sometimes even get sample pages or have a discovery call, whatever that is. But you know, there's a lot of developmental editors that that lean a little towards line editing. There's line editors that lean towards copy editing. So yeah, just research who you're choosing. But in general, these last two phases are usually line editor's world, and then it's spelling grammar, copy editor's world.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Okay. So that was the four, basically the four stages of a self-edit. And I like to just think of it like whatever stage you're in, just make an assessment of what is there. And then from your assessment, you know, kind of devise a plan and of how you want to go about making changes. And then you implement it and then you assess again. Does it work? Does it not? And sometimes you're gonna have to pull out and you're gonna have to get outside feedback. As a matter of fact, it's it's critical at some point that you have outside feedback at some point. So that might roll us into when you want to use go to beta beta readers or you know, consider a developmental edit.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah. And actually, I'm gonna keep backing us up because this is what I do. But if I think you said the word plan and my head went to like, yeah, make a realistic plan, because it's one thing to say, oh, okay, sounds good. You guys talked about it so fast, and I can see this, and I'm gonna do it in three weeks. And it's like, no, you're not, you know, because you have a full-time job, you have kids, you have whatever. So it's, you know, we keep saying over and over, probably like a broken record, you're gonna spend most of your time in the first two phases, probably even most of that time in the first phase, looking at those big structural edits. And again, it's like not one pass, right? It's multiple passes. So I just like to say be realistic. Same with when you're writing, right? You you can't assume you're gonna write 5,000 words per day if your track record says you write 300, because that's how we set ourselves up for disappointment.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

So 100%. And that actually pulls us exactly into what I wanted to ask you, Nat, is like common pitfalls and traps that writers can avoid and setting yourself up with realistic expectations, I think is you know, that's the best thing you can do. Yeah. Be realistic, give yourself a lot of grace, especially if this is your first time, first time editing a novel. And and I think you said, you know, ask for help when you don't know what you don't know. That's what we're here for.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

So right.

unknown 32:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And any other traps or pitfalls that you yeah. So trap, like you said, not being realistic, not asking for help when you need it. Those are huge ones. Definitely another huge one is mixing the levels too much. So, like doing a page edit at the same time you're trying to edit your story. When you hear us explain this, you're probably like, yeah, no wonder that doesn't work. There's so many different things to think about, right? So just don't expect that of yourself. Again, this goes back to having realistic expectations. Plus, like, there is a method to the madness. That's why there are multiple types of editors, because we need to look at this in passes. And as you go through it, you're whittling down and tightening up your story. And it's just gonna make your ultimate job of polishing those pages even easier, which I know we all want to get to because we're closer to finishing our books and things like that. So those are big ones. And then I would say I don't, this is not a pitfall, but make sure you understand, I guess, what your plans are for publishing. And this is, I think, what you were gonna get at before is if you're trying to get a traditional publisher, you probably, unless like you know you need help with line editing and copy editing, you probably don't need to take your story through those two phases again, unless you know you need help with that. Because an agent and an editor at a publishing house, they're really looking to see does this story work? And they're gonna take you through another developmental edit on if you get a deal with them. They're gonna take you through a line edit and a copy edit. So it's like I want to say two things. You want you want your story to be as best and as presentable as it can be. You don't want to probably be paying tons of money to a copy editor or a line editor when there's gonna be those big picture changes if the publishing house takes you through a developmental edit.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Anything to add there? It's what that's very well said. It's hard to know when I first started writing. I didn't know what I didn't know, and I didn't know if it was good enough, to be honest. I didn't know if it was good enough to try to query. And I thought about spending money on a copy edit to because I I grammar is not like is not a strong suit of mine. And it's not in my wheelhouse. I I write like I talk, and that's not real pretty either. So I thought about doing that. But instead, what I wound up doing is going out to some beta readers and getting some feedback that way and you know, talking to people that I trusted, working with the book coach and and those things. I did spend money, but I invested elsewhere instead of yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

And and then I then I went on and I queried. And it's you went about it the way that's like top down. So you're you're learning how to make your story work and be enticing to those agents and editors versus paying someone to help you correct your grammar, which isn't going to matter if your story's broken. So just something so people to consider. And if you're not sure, that's okay. You know, go through these steps on your own because we are talking about self-editing. So go through all these steps on your own. And at some point you'll need to make that decision and then you can figure out where your next steps are. The other last thing I'll say on pit balls is people ask me all the time, can I do these stages or phases out of order? Again, you can do whatever you want in theory, but I would say don't do it because it's just gonna hurt yourself in the long run. So we're think about like a funnel, right? We want to funnel our stories from go from the big picture down to the small picture. And by the time you get to that polishing phase, you want to have the tightest draft, the best story to polish rather than spending, you know, months polishing something that you're just gonna throw out half the scenes, you know. So, my recommendation do not go out of order. Don't try to do too many things at once and have realistic expectations.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

And give yourself lots of grace and reach out for help if and when you need it. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Savannah. You're just a wealth of knowledge. And you're it's just amazing to have you on the show. So, what is your wish for writers working out there through their edits? What wish or I guess well wish would you like to impart to them?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Yeah, so I think we've said kind of the most key things. Like, give yourself grace, know it's gonna take time. If you set yourself up with realistic expectations, you're gonna have like it sounds silly, right? Because it's mindset, but you're gonna have a much easier time if you expect the process to go a certain way. And these, the things we're telling you, we have experience working with writers who do it this way or they do it the backwards way, and then they regret it. Whenever I want to learn something or do something new, I look at the people who have gone before me and I say, How can I learn from their mistakes and make the most efficient use of my time? We're trying to give you that roadmap to help you do that. So get the checklist that'll help you go through the different phases of editing, give yourself grace. And if I can back up and give another piece of advice, because again, that's my thing. Don't aim for perfection on your first draft. Cause like we said in the beginning, this is really where you hone your story. And I hope that encourages you to get through your first draft quicker and not sit on those first three chapters rewriting them over and over and over because they're never going to be perfect. So just get it down and make the magic and revisions.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

I love that. And also just stay open, stay willing to change and ask questions as you go along. I tend to hold a rigid mindset and my characters kind of they get cemented in stone. And I was working with my book coach like last month, and she gave me a suggestion about how to change some things. And I was like, no, are you kidding? I spent like five months developing these people and like, you know, I wasn't willing right then, but I entertained the idea over a series of weeks, and you know, okay, yeah, I could see how that maybe works. So so just try to be open, ask questions. When you get suggestions, table them and think about them.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah, well, that's a great point to me because you know, usually and it's it's hard to give blanket advice because some people your book coach, for example, knows your intentions. So they're giving you this advice, knowing what you're trying to do. So there's there's kind of two buckets advice can fall into. One is like, you don't know what I'm trying to do, and you're giving me these weird ideas. I'm gonna table that and just thank you, but whatever. You get to decide, right? Then there's the other part where it's like Stacy's saying, she gets it from her book coach who knows what she's trying to do. Yes, you're gonna react. I mean, I think 95% of us are gonna react like, don't tell me that. Be open, sit with it, and ask. My favorite thing is ask for the why. Like, what is the why? Why is she saying that? Why does this character in a movie work that I like, but mine of a similar version doesn't work? Always ask why, and you'll usually get to something, even if it's not like the exact answer you want.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

I love that. That is, I think that's a beautiful place to end it. So thank you so much, Savannah. Where can listeners find you and connect with you and learn more about all the amazing services that you have?

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Sure. So I'm just at at Savannah.gilbo on Instagram or my website is SavannahGilbo.com. Um, I also have the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast, which we talked about earlier. And yeah, I'd be happy to hear from everybody. Right on. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

See you next time. Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared Podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. And please leave a review. Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories. Let's lift each other up. Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable. I'll see you next week.